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  #37  
Old September 13th, 2007, 12:58 AM
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You could think of the one axis as "What will I get for a marker on this card after it's taken some fire?" By that reckoning, the Krav and 4th Mass, for instance, would indeed rank higher than the Airborne.

On the other axis, though... would you be counting up the synergy benefits received or only the benefits offered? Would someone like Ne-Gok-Sa, who receives boosts from SBN and Romans, get a bump? And what about double attackers and Deadly Shots who can double-dip on certain boosts?
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  #38  
Old September 13th, 2007, 07:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdhight
You could think of the one axis as "What will I get for a marker on this card after it's taken some fire?" By that reckoning, the Krav and 4th Mass, for instance, would indeed rank higher than the Airborne.
Yep.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rdhight
On the other axis, though... would you be counting up the synergy benefits received or only the benefits offered? Would someone like Ne-Gok-Sa, who receives boosts from SBN and Romans, get a bump? And what about double attackers and Deadly Shots who can double-dip on certain boosts?
I think I'd focus on Synergy Bonuses offered. Squads that bond would have lower offensive potential than something like the Airborne Elite, but the fact that they can bond would increase their synergy score. Ne-Gok-Sa's most noteworthy trait would be his durability, but he might get a slight score boost in synergy based on the off-chance that Mindshackle could actually work. Raelin would have the highest synergy score of any figure, because she's just that versatile. Einar Imperium and Omnicron Snipers wouldn't get much of a synergy score, but Empress Kiova and Taelord would.

One thing I keep thinking about is how to incorporate cost when looking at offensive and defensive ability. Charos and Q9 are both much tougher than Deathreavers, but they also cost far more.

One idea I have is to use a simple formula:

(Number of figures or lives per card)*(10)*(Defense score)/(Point cost)+C= Durability (where C is a constant added for Common status of the card)

A similar formula could also be made for Offense.

Edit: Out of curiosity, I tested the formula out, with a value of 0 for C. (This gives no bias to common units.) Deathreavers have a value of 4.0, Q9 a value of 1.56, and Charos a value of 2.14. The AE have a value of .73. It might also be worthwhile to add in constants for certain special abilities, such as counterstrike, stealth dodge, and ninja disappear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fomox View Post
(I've also played many matches with great, fun people who were using Q9. So using Q9 doesn't make you a tool. But being a tool sure seems to make you use Q9.)
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  #39  
Old September 13th, 2007, 08:01 PM
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Here is something I did to make games move faster and to allow EVERY unit to be used.


http://www.heroscapers.com/community...ad.php?t=11140

Theophilus.
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  #40  
Old September 13th, 2007, 08:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theats
Here is something I did to make games move faster and to allow EVERY unit to be used.


http://www.heroscapers.com/community...ad.php?t=11140
I read it, and it would definitely make for some cool battle reports. I remember how often my friends and I would talk about our 6v6 Capture the Flag matches on Blood Gulch in Halo afterwards. It was a good time.

I'm also looking forward to Starcraft 2.

I didn't really intend for this thread to be a "Should we use Order Markers?" discussion. More of a... "How to use Order Markers."

Also, the more I use math, the more I start to sound like UPC's concept of IGPV. I really don't want to take credit for anyone else's work. This started as a simple gut reaction I noticed after trying to use Zombies alongside any other units.

Sometimes I feel like I'm talking about the same thing only using different words, like when Karl Marx went through Wealth of Nations and replaced all notions of price with use-value and everyone thought he was a freaking genius.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fomox View Post
(I've also played many matches with great, fun people who were using Q9. So using Q9 doesn't make you a tool. But being a tool sure seems to make you use Q9.)
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  #41  
Old September 13th, 2007, 08:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jexik
Quote:
Originally Posted by theats
Here is something I did to make games move faster and to allow EVERY unit to be used.


http://www.heroscapers.com/community...ad.php?t=11140
I read it, and it would definitely make for some cool battle reports. I remember how often my friends and I would talk about our 6v6 Capture the Flag matches on Blood Gulch in Halo afterwards. It was a good time.

I'm also looking forward to Starcraft 2.

I didn't really intend for this thread to be a "Should we use Order Markers?" discussion. More of a... "How to use Order Markers."

Also, the more I use math, the more I start to sound like UPC's concept of IGPV. I really don't want to take credit for anyone else's work. This started as a simple gut reaction I noticed after trying to use Zombies alongside any other units.

Sometimes I feel like I'm talking about the same thing only using different words, like when Karl Marx went through Wealth of Nations and replaced all notions of price with use-value and everyone thought he was a freaking genius.
I wasn't meaning to hijack your thread. I was just trying to get your opinion. But, I will try using order markers with the marvel scape.

Theophilus.
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  #42  
Old September 13th, 2007, 08:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theats
I wasn't meaning to hijack your thread. I was just trying to get your opinion. But, I will try using order markers with the marvel scape.
I'm sorry. I'm probably coming off a bit harsh. I guess I've been surprised ever since the start when I first heard that you and others often forgo the use of order markers. Very rarely do I play large games, so it's probably a bit presumptuous of me to tell people how they should have fun.

As for Marvel Scape: if you play with just them, my friend and I both decided that with the exception of Red Skull and Captain America, they're almost universally offensive figures with ridiculous durability.

I was just thinking I might redirect the discussion back towards how I can improve my discussion of order marker usage, instead of whether I should be using them at all.

Again, I apologize.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fomox View Post
(I've also played many matches with great, fun people who were using Q9. So using Q9 doesn't make you a tool. But being a tool sure seems to make you use Q9.)
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  #43  
Old September 13th, 2007, 10:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jexik
Again, I apologize.
No need, at least for me. I should apologize for bringing this up again. I've defended the no order marker thing we use in our house a few times and I know that all it really does is lower myself in the eyes of others. As the "arguments" sprouted up and the attacks on my intellect occurred I dug in deeper and defended myself even harder.

The truth of the matter is that I play with only one person, my kid, who asked that we not use them after we tried a few times and I agreed. I still say that the games go faster without them and it's nice to not lose turns. However, I would never approach another player and ask to not use them in a game, and Lord bless me with that chance someday.

With that I'll take my leave of this thread and see what's going on over here.
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  #44  
Old September 14th, 2007, 11:22 AM
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Its kind of funny because I was playing with a friend a couple of nights ago on the Bridge of Volcarren map and he had drafted Raelin, and constantly placed an order marker on her just to decide not to move or attack, wasting valuable order markers! Definitely going to print out this one for him
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  #45  
Old September 26th, 2007, 06:21 PM
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I added some new links to the end for additional information, and to give credit to the hard work of others.

Also, I removed the version history to clean up the original post, and will keep it here for any who are interested:


[Edit: Just added a suggested uses section to each group to build up to the conclusion. Any tips, suggestions, comments, possible order (no pun intended) changes to the layout of the post, etc are appreciated.]
[Edit2: Started adding colors... is it too much? Man, that violet should warn you that it's pink in disguise.]
[Edit3-20. Random playing with colors and thanking whichever mod moved this to its correct location.]
[Even more edits to add in more bonded entries and fix random color annoyances. Should I tone down the Germanic Kapitalization now that I am using Kolors?]
[v. 1.35: I renamed some of the classifications to make more sense, but the spirit remains the same. I also fixed a few glaring mistakes, like the omission of Sentinels of Jandar as defenders.]
[v. 1.40 Added a funny quote. Also added Iskra Esenwein as per rdhight's suggestion.]
[v. 1.42 Changed general mentions of Krug to Menacer, but kept the other two conditional ones when describing the different categories of units.]
[v1.47? (9-26) Added links to other threads discussing similar topics, something I should have done long ago.]

Quote:
Originally Posted by fomox View Post
(I've also played many matches with great, fun people who were using Q9. So using Q9 doesn't make you a tool. But being a tool sure seems to make you use Q9.)
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  #46  
Old September 27th, 2007, 06:44 AM
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This too is very interesting. Thumbsups . I think it can be useful when building armies, knowing if your going to pick all guys that shouldn't have many order markeres on them and well, hard to explain.

See Valhalla like never before:
Airborne Elite in the
BYZANTINE CAVE...
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  #47  
Old September 27th, 2007, 10:05 AM
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Whenever the order markers/no order markers discussion comes up, I think of the Monty Python skit where a game of tennis is described as "playing doubles," but they have two players on one side and three on the other. The response is to say that you can do that if you want, "But, don't go calling it 'doubles'."

I won't say, if you don't use order markers, "Don't go calling it 'HeroScape.'" I won't say it, but I'll think it.
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  #48  
Old October 1st, 2007, 01:47 PM
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Re: What's in an Order Marker?

Nice write-up. I thought the "Shark" designation was particularly clever.

I'm curious why you marked the Sacred Band and Armoc Vipers as "2nd-Stringers." While they certainly don't have as many bonding options as the Roman Legionnaires, if you are willing to accept their heroes, they do just as well in battle.
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