Heroscapers
Go Back   Heroscapers > Official Classic HeroScape > HeroScape General Discussion
HeroScape General Discussion General discussions of packaging, terrain, components, etc. If it doesn't fit in any other official category, put it here.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #25  
Old January 16th, 2008, 02:28 PM
keglo's Avatar
keglo keglo is offline
 
Join Date: December 4, 2007
Location: MO - Springfield
Posts: 1,525
keglo rolls all skulls baby! keglo rolls all skulls baby! keglo rolls all skulls baby! keglo rolls all skulls baby! keglo rolls all skulls baby!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wind Lane
Your second point is fine, but I don't get the first one. RotV isn't being retired or phased out or anything. It's just not in production right now. The HS creators have stated (and proven by the wave rereleases) that nothing will go out of print, it all just goes in cycles. We have wave's 1-7 and you can find any of them somewhere. We have master sets 1-2 and it works the same way. I haven't heard of a set being completely gone, though they can be gone in most areas.
I hope you are correct that RotV will still be produced. I only have my own personal taste to go by but I still believe that SotM is not worthy of master set status. Even if they keep producing both master sets you will most likely not see them both sitting on the shelf at the same time. It just seems to me that the long periods of time where SotM is the only master set sitting on shelves that it will attract fewer new customers. I think a Rotv master set sitting next to a SotM large expansion would generate many more sale of both. Just my humble opinion.

Great trades with Onacara, Gypsy, SirGalahad, elltrain, generalgina, Concord, Just_a_Bill, LongHeroscaper, janus19390, and the very generous obfuscatedhippo.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old January 16th, 2008, 05:08 PM
Sisyphus's Avatar
Sisyphus Sisyphus is offline
 
Join Date: June 15, 2007
Location: FL - Naples
Posts: 528
Sisyphus knows what's in an order marker Sisyphus knows what's in an order marker Sisyphus knows what's in an order marker
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wind Lane
You could make a solid argument that the RotV master set is flawed in some ways because of its diversity. Very few figures work directly with each other in RotV...
I would argue the exact opposite. Because of its diversity, RotV figures work better with each other than SotM figures. For example Raelin + Stealth Dodging Krav, Raelin + Counter-Striking Izumi, or Thorgrim/Finn with all the unique squads/heroes. In SotM there is only Nagrubs + Tor-Kul-Na and Hive + Stingers/Drudge and I could argue that the Hive is often little more than a 160 point target.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wind Lane
and you'd be hard pressed to come up with anything truly competitive in terms of tournament play using just that set.
I haven't seen a completive tournament army with just a SoTM master set either. Granted I have only been to one tournament but in it I played against....

from RotV:
Raelin
Sgt. Drake
Izumi Samurai
Krav Maga Agents
Airborne Elite

and from SotM:
Marro Stingers(3 times)
Major Q10(5 times)

I interpret this as meaning that RotV has many good, tournament competitive figures while SotM has fewer though perhaps better tournament competitive figures.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wind Lane
Personally, I am pleased as punch to own multiple copies of both sets. It's apples and oranges really, sure, they're both fruit, but they're not quite the same thing.

Sure do taste good though.
I agree completely with this. :P


The big difference I see between RotV and SotM is that RotV is more strategical and SotM is more tactical. In RotV no one tells you which figures work well together or which figures counter other figures. This means some of the hardest and most important decisions come before the battle even takes place in the form of army selection. In SotM the cards explicitly say that the Nagrubs mesh(bond) with their Hivelord and that the Hive mesh(bond) with Drudge/Stingers. You can also just look at the figures to see that the Marro belong together. But to make up for the lack of pre-game strategic planning, SotM adds more in-game tactical planning due to having common squads. To use common squads to their full potential you must careful about their movements and formations to compensate for losses.

All of this means that RotV is easier on beginners because in my experience beginners have a hard time using common squads effectively. With uniques, they just pour order markers on them and advance them to attack until they die. This strategy fails when applied to common squads since it usually results in one or two members of a squad facing down a concentrated attack while the rest of the squad is too far away to do anything.

All in all, RotV gets my vote as best master set because of better terrain and more varied figures.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old January 16th, 2008, 11:30 PM
rdhight's Avatar
rdhight rdhight is offline
Embraces the Suck
 
Join Date: June 1, 2007
Location: crawling through holes.
Posts: 2,678
Images: 7
Blog Entries: 4
rdhight wears ripped pants of awesomeness rdhight wears ripped pants of awesomeness rdhight wears ripped pants of awesomeness rdhight wears ripped pants of awesomeness rdhight wears ripped pants of awesomeness rdhight wears ripped pants of awesomeness rdhight wears ripped pants of awesomeness
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eckels
Why is it better to have to choose between two specific versions of the same character, than two distinct characters? To have a built-in disadvantage? That doesn't sound smart. I understand your point about why you think they did it, but it doesn't mean that it SHOULD have been done.
...
If they really wanted to re-issue Drake and Raelin, they should have thrown them in a "Heroes revisited" expansion set and left it at that.
...
As for having to increase the army card points just for the privilege of using both Raelins in one game, I still disagree. Each character should have points based on their own values (with the exception of characters with bonded abilties), NOT based on the possibility of having two individual figures together in the same army. Otherwise, both figures are devalued if you only elect to draft one of them.
Not picking on you here-- I can agree to disagree-- but I think you need to recognize that not every element of the game is destined to find a good home with every player. I know there are players out there who like the random stuff-- Runa, the revive glpyh, and Mitonsoul. I loathe those particular powers, but I recognize that they serve a segment of the Heroscaper population that either A) likes that lack of control or B) is killercactus. They have a meaningful purpose, even though that purpose isn't to fight for me.

They can't possibly make 100% of the figures appeal to both of us. I'm most interested in a figure's cost, attack power, and order marker efficiency. I like it that Marcu, Isamu, and Ashigaru Harquebus have 1 defense, and that the Drudge and Stingers have 5 range, because I generally value the corresponding decrease in cost more than I value more than what those figures give up. New Drake and new Raelin are not aggressively priced as it is. With new names and therefore higher prices, they'd only slip deeper into the B-list than they already have.

For that reason, I'm excited about Aquilla's figures. Because they will have a built-in disadvantage (flagbearer incompatibility), the fair price for most if not all cards can be slightly cheaper as Aquilla cards. I mean, if you have the same stats on a Vydar ranged unit and an Aquilla ranged unit, the fact that one can benefit from Laglor and one can't should be worth a little price break to the new guys. Likewise, I hope we see many more same-name units, because I want my armies to exploit all opportunities for price reduction. Just because the SotM units aren't aimed at you personally doesn't mean it's a worse introduction to the game for new players in general.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eckels
To rename these two characters puts a built-in disadvanage on this game (for the reasons we both state), which, for a game that is the SAME PRICE as the original master system, greatly reduces it's value.
I don't follow you. If you buy RotV, you're getting two figures who can't be played with their counterparts in SotM. If you buy SotM, you're getting two figures who can't be played with their counterparts in RotV. Even if you think the renaming is a liability, doesn't it hurt both sets the same?
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old January 16th, 2008, 11:45 PM
Eckels's Avatar
Eckels Eckels is offline
Ug, a gray man
 
Join Date: January 6, 2008
Location: NY- Long Island
Posts: 847
Images: 40
Blog Entries: 4
Eckels knows what's in an order marker Eckels knows what's in an order marker
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdhight
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eckels
Why is it better to have to choose between two specific versions of the same character, than two distinct characters? To have a built-in disadvantage? That doesn't sound smart. I understand your point about why you think they did it, but it doesn't mean that it SHOULD have been done.
...
If they really wanted to re-issue Drake and Raelin, they should have thrown them in a "Heroes revisited" expansion set and left it at that.
...
As for having to increase the army card points just for the privilege of using both Raelins in one game, I still disagree. Each character should have points based on their own values (with the exception of characters with bonded abilties), NOT based on the possibility of having two individual figures together in the same army. Otherwise, both figures are devalued if you only elect to draft one of them.
Not picking on you here-- I can agree to disagree-- but I think you need to recognize that not every element of the game is destined to find a good home with every player. I know there are players out there who like the random stuff-- Runa, the revive glpyh, and Mitonsoul. I loathe those particular powers, but I recognize that they serve a segment of the Heroscaper population that either A) likes that lack of control or B) is killercactus. They have a meaningful purpose, even though that purpose isn't to fight for me.

They can't possibly make 100% of the figures appeal to both of us. I'm most interested in a figure's cost, attack power, and order marker efficiency. I like it that Marcu, Isamu, and Ashigaru Harquebus have 1 defense, and that the Drudge and Stingers have 5 range, because I generally value the corresponding decrease in cost more than I value more than what those figures give up. New Drake and new Raelin are not aggressively priced as it is. With new names and therefore higher prices, they'd only slip deeper into the B-list than they already have.

For that reason, I'm excited about Aquilla's figures. Because they will have a built-in disadvantage (flagbearer incompatibility), the fair price for most if not all cards can be slightly cheaper as Aquilla cards. I mean, if you have the same stats on a Vydar ranged unit and an Aquilla ranged unit, the fact that one can benefit from Laglor and one can't should be worth a little price break to the new guys. Likewise, I hope we see many more same-name units, because I want my armies to exploit all opportunities for price reduction. Just because the SotM units aren't aimed at you personally doesn't mean it's a worse introduction to the game for new players in general.
I feel dumb right now because I don't have any of those units you mention (cept raelin and drake and the marros of course). And what's killercactus? And the flagbearers look awesome, but I haven't the funds to spare at the moment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rdhight
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eckels
To rename these two characters puts a built-in disadvanage on this game (for the reasons we both state), which, for a game that is the SAME PRICE as the original master system, greatly reduces it's value.
I don't follow you. If you buy RotV, you're getting two figures who can't be played with their counterparts in SotM. If you buy SotM, you're getting two figures who can't be played with their counterparts in RotV. Even if you think the renaming is a liability, doesn't it hurt both sets the same?
It sounds like you follow me perfectly. It DOES hurt both sets the same. It was a BAD choice on the part of hasbro, which is my point exactly.

If it was Hasbro's intention to draw in more first time users, the set should have had MORE land, with more building options, and a wider variety of figures. Instead they put together a sloppy overpriced grab-bag of duplicast bone colored garbage.

And I guess china must have been having a sale on dark green.

It's a crappy excuse for a master set. It's a overpriced expansion targeted at Heroscape addicts. It should have been called "The Swamp Set Expansion".

Good Traders: Just_a_Bill, Wind Lane, Steiner, Hilo-scaper, tdavid6
My Latest Maps
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old January 17th, 2008, 12:52 AM
soberman's Avatar
soberman soberman is offline
 
Join Date: April 14, 2007
Location: PA - Pittsburgh
Posts: 918
soberman knows what's in an order marker soberman knows what's in an order marker
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdhight
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eckels
the Marro master set makes for a great expansion, but just because it's big and they call it a master set, doesn't really make it a master set.
This makes no sense. RotV and SotM are both equally master sets. Both have an equal amount to say about what a master set "really is."
Personally, I believe the sole criterion for being dubbed a "master set" is that all the requisite components for play out of the box are included. Marvel, an even smaller set, has been deemed a Master Set for this reason as well, but that gets disputed nowhere near as frequently because many here want to the games to be regarded as seperate entities.

So which is it? It can't be both.

Also, regarding the lack of common squads for the good guy team, I think sound marketing decisions were made with the packaging of this set. If it were my first MS, I'd be thirsty as a sinner in heck for booster packs. Moreover, giving the Marro 2 common squads impresses upon the masses of non-gaming hoi-polloi just how much mulitple squads enhance gameplay. RotV, for all it's great qualities, fell short in this department.

I will admit, those 3 empty hex spaces in the top tier of the block of tiles annoyed me a tad, and I do wish they had included a cool LOS blocker besides the hive, like some hex-mounted rocks or something, but otherwise, I LOVE SotM. The Hive takes up some of the space in the box that housed other things in RotV, but the hive is freaking cool as heck!
____________________
now playing: Huntingtons File Under Ramones
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old May 23rd, 2009, 02:26 PM
Disposable Hero's Avatar
Disposable Hero Disposable Hero is offline
 
Join Date: January 17, 2009
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow
Posts: 286
Images: 4
Disposable Hero is a puppet of Ne-Gok-Sa
Re: Master set 1 vs. Master set 2 : A players perspective

Master Set 1 was better. Not enough variety in 2, but plenty in 1.5 (and by 1.5,I mean Marvel).

Demerge Disney And Marvel!!!
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old May 23rd, 2009, 03:49 PM
Toad Rocket Toad Rocket is offline
 
Join Date: January 3, 2009
Location: Canada - BC - Fraser Valley
Posts: 1,530
Toad Rocket wears ripped pants of awesomeness Toad Rocket wears ripped pants of awesomeness Toad Rocket wears ripped pants of awesomeness Toad Rocket wears ripped pants of awesomeness Toad Rocket wears ripped pants of awesomeness Toad Rocket wears ripped pants of awesomeness
Re: Master set 1 vs. Master set 2 : A players perspective

Well I got the SOTM first. It was a good intro into the game, though when we got SOTM for my son we thought off the bat the ROTV kit would of been better.

SOTM succeeds in that it has multiple common squads. Having a Marro VS others is both good and bad. Good in that it identifies a bad guy to defeat, bad in that it limits armies pretty much out of the gate. However, lack of land became an issue pretty fast. Especially once we bought a couple of booster packs.

ROTV is much better all around master set. Alot of variety, alot of land, and LOS blockers. The terrain options alone make this set the winner. Plus with the variety of units your not compelled to make a themed army, mostly because you really cant. The only thing you dont get out of ROTV is the feel of common squads. But for just getting into the game, thats really not a big issue.

And yes, duplicates of Raelin and Drake was an absolute horrible idea. I really do not want 'evolved' units that cant be in the same army. Evolved units is too pokemonish.

In Summary
ROTV, great master set.
SOTM, darn good expansion
Marvel, pretty neat expansion

"I wish my iPad would stop trying to autocorrect all the heroscape names for me."

Good Trades I have had.

Collection Guide for Recommended Quantities.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old May 23rd, 2009, 03:55 PM
Bonecrusher Bonecrusher is offline
 
Join Date: May 16, 2009
Location: USA - PA - Camphill
Posts: 1,558
Bonecrusher rolls all skulls baby! Bonecrusher rolls all skulls baby! Bonecrusher rolls all skulls baby! Bonecrusher rolls all skulls baby! Bonecrusher rolls all skulls baby!
Re: Master set 1 vs. Master set 2 : A players perspective

ROTV is everything you need to get into the game. Some great figures, a lot of tiles and the ruins.

SOTM is pretty good once you have ROTV. It is great to get more figures (especially stingers) but with lack of terrain it is hard for SOTM to stand alone.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old May 23rd, 2009, 04:54 PM
500points 500points is offline
 
Join Date: April 19, 2008
Location: You will never know!
Posts: 57
500points Woo who?
Re: Master set 1 vs. Master set 2 : A players perspective

Guys this tread was dead.

< Click me Please
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old May 24th, 2009, 12:09 PM
Nathify's Avatar
Nathify Nathify is offline
 
Join Date: November 20, 2008
Location: USA, Broken Arrow, OK.
Posts: 513
Nathify is a puppet of Ne-Gok-Sa
Re: Master set 1 vs. Master set 2 : A players perspective

I'm not sure why SWARM OF THE MARRO with all of those marro'.

Things in life dissapoint you. Even heroscape...when you notice how light your wallet is.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old May 24th, 2009, 02:36 PM
Utgars_General's Avatar
Utgars_General Utgars_General is offline
 
Join Date: March 9, 2009
Location: USA - NY - Monroe
Posts: 273
Utgars_General is surprisingly tart
Re: Master set 1 vs. Master set 2 : A players perspective

I think that more people were attracted by MS1 since it had more themes in it. Some person may want a dragon, MS1. A samuri, MS1. Robots, MS1 and 2. Soldiers, MS1/2. More people were attracted by MS1, but MS2 encouages long flat battlefields. RotV encoraged mountains and rivers. SotM was more attractive with the colors of the swamp than RotV with the grass, which I use under other tiles due to it blending in/standing out.

My Customs Last Updated: June 9th, 2011
-Now with space-and-time saving organization, and 'Nids!
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old May 25th, 2009, 12:32 AM
Killometer's Avatar
Killometer Killometer is offline
Is a Tingly Soldier of Valhalla
 
Join Date: March 26, 2009
Location: Ben Lomond, CA
Posts: 5,829
Killometer is hot lava death! Killometer is hot lava death! Killometer is hot lava death! Killometer is hot lava death! Killometer is hot lava death! Killometer is hot lava death! Killometer is hot lava death! Killometer is hot lava death! Killometer is hot lava death! Killometer is hot lava death! Killometer is hot lava death! Killometer is hot lava death! Killometer is hot lava death!
Re: Master set 1 vs. Master set 2 : A players perspective

Somebody didn't check the dates when they posted in this thread a couple days ago, but since I wasn't here for the original conversation either, I'll inject my opinion now, too.

SotM really has a hard time justifying itself as a Master Set-I know, it's been said plenty of time before but that doesn't make it any less true. I was fortunate and got in on HS late (like this March ), and was able to get both RotV and SotM for about 55 bucks, including shipping. But if I had been around earlier, I would have bought both at paid full price, and would have felt ripped off when I opened SotM.

What HS really needs to do is establish a catagory called a Master Expansion, or something similiar. Bigger than an Expansion (RttFF, TT, VW, etc.) but smaller than THE Master Set (RotV) and priced somewhere in between, as appropriate. SotM is a prime example of what such a creation should encompass-a strong theme, 1000+ points of figures and a substantial amount of terrain.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Eckels View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdhight
I know there are players out there who like the random stuff-- Runa, the revive glpyh, and Mitonsoul. I loathe those particular powers, but I recognize that they serve a segment of the Heroscaper population that either A) likes that lack of control or B) is killercactus.
I feel dumb right now because I don't have any of those units you mention (cept raelin and drake and the marros of course). And what's killercactus?

This exchage was just to funny to ignore.

117-87-0 (4/13/09-2/22/15)
32-16-0 (10/17/09-7/21/12)
Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   Heroscapers > Official Classic HeroScape > HeroScape General Discussion
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:19 PM.

Heroscape background footer

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.