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View Poll Results: What order do you think it is?
Romans > Axegrinders > Deathchasers 6 40.00%
Romans > Deathchasers > Axegrinders 0 0%
Axegrinders > Romans > Deathchasers 7 46.67%
Axegrinders > Deathchasers > Romans 0 0%
Deathchasers > Romans > Axegrinders 0 0%
Deathchasers > Axegrinders > Romans 2 13.33%
Voters: 15. You may not vote on this poll

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  #13  
Old October 19th, 2019, 11:47 PM
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Re: Romans, Axegrinders, or Deathchasers?

My belief is Romans > Dwarves > Death Chasers.

I'm basing this off of 500 points at 24 figure limits. At lower figure limits, the Dwarves start to gain the edge on Romans in my view just because the Romans are almost too efficient for their points and it's hard to get a good full-on Roman build at, say, the 16 figure limit Gencon main had last year.

I think Death Chasers third is the clearest one here, because:
1) 3 person squad, as has already been pointed out
2) Their best advantage, MBS, is at odds with the most efficient way to play Chasers, which is to pin your opponent in their start zone with a quick rush. If you're pushing forward fast like this, you'll get ~ 4 hits with MBS (max) before your death chasers are engaged. Let's say 2 of those hit - losing 2 squad figures before direct mele engagement, I'll still take either Romans or Dwarves even down 2 figures over the death chasers because of 1 more per squad and better defense.

Regarding Romans v. Dwarves, this is insanely close, but I see the Romans winning because to me they are --slightly-- more efficient for their points. I can replace Dwarves x4 with Romans x5 and still have 30 points left over, which in most matchups I'd prefer. I see three major different types of matchups here:
1) Mele heavy. Here, having those extra 4 Romans is huge to just outlast based on pure numbers. Plus, MBS gives you 1-2 rounds of free shots before your opponent engages.
2) Against smaller ranged figures. Here, having NGS as a bonding option is actually quite useful. NGS is a tank and can clutter up quite a bit of ranged units to buy your Romans up to a round of 'free' advancement. In this matchup, I'd take NGS over MBS (if it was a draft or I knew my opponent's army in advance). Mogrimm is also a good option for that, but he's available in either army. The downside to using him in this role for the Dwarves army is that it denies 8-12 Dwarves 2 extra movement spaces in round 1, while you probably need the board control that those 2 moves give them more. This is close between Romans v. Dwarves, but the Romans being cheaper allows two things - being more ok with losing several as they advance (and still having close to 4 squads when you get there) and being able to sacrifice a hero to tie up the ranged units while still having 1-2 quality bonding heroes left. The Dwarves advantage here comes from having 6 move, but the Romans 5 move (with Marcus) is almost as good, and their other advantages outweigh to me.
3) Against larger figures, like Nilf or Q9. Clearly the Dwarves have the edge here, with better movement and with becoming 4/4 units. But with the current meta, I see this matchup happening less often than (1) or (2), so I lean towards Romans still.
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  #14  
Old October 21st, 2019, 08:11 AM
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Re: Romans, Axegrinders, or Deathchasers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by vegietarian18 View Post
I don't own any Dwarves still so I'm biased against Dwarves as I've just never taken them to tournaments. And I've had a lot of experience with Deathchasers and Romans. Probably all of my best tournament runs have been with Deathchasers, and my first ever Gencon Main Event army was a Romans + Raelin + Marcus + MBS build. I probably make Day 2 with that build if I'm not 14 and really nervous in my 3-1 match. But anyways I'll make the case for those two being better than Dwarves.

MBS is really the X factor that makes the Romans and the Deathchasers good. Having a range bonder allows you to simultaneously slowroll and apply pressure on your opponent. Mogrimm isn't at all the same thing since he requires engagement.

Romans and Deathchasers are crazy cheap too though. Like that Roman build I took to Gencon in 2012 was Romans x4, Marcus, MBS, Raelin, Marcu and that's only 450 points. Deathchasers can do Deathchasers x4, Nerak, MBS and Raelin for only 400 points. The figure limit increasing especially hurts Romans since you can't spam the startzone with four or five squads of them. Deathchasers also get weaker with higher point totals in my opinion since their value is in battle rush and with more squads battle rush pushes each figure less far out of the start zone. They are good when they get the jump and blow up an opponent's offense and that happens more reliably at lower point totals. You can try to win attrition games with a build like Deathchasers x5, Raelin, Nerak, MBS, Ogre Pulverizer for 555 points and I don't think it's awful but in those situations I'd much rather be playing Knights or Heavies. But I don't think I'd rather be playing a 555 point pure dwarf build there though. Are there even good pure high point Dwarf builds?

I guess maybe the argument is Dwarves are better as a 2x squad with Darrak alongside some other interesting army pieces. But then I think you get into the problem with the 4th vs. 10th debate where massed 4th are clearly better than massed 10th but 10th do have build versatility that maybe allows them to fit in more competitive builds. But IMO those builds are usually propped up by the strength of the other figures.

Anyway, I guess my point is I think that Romans x5 MBS Raelin Marcus Marcu easily beats whatever the best Dwarf build is at 500 points.
SOMEONE START A KICKSTARTER TO GET THIS MAN SOME DWARVES!

Romans are dirt cheap at 12.5pt. a pop, but Deathchasers are actually more expensive than Dwarves. Deathchasers are 18.33pt. each while Dwarves are 17.5pt. each.

Do you mean the figure limit decreasing, not increasing?

Yeah I think cheap stuff like Romans and Blades really shine in lower point total formats, as longs as it still allows high figure/hex limits, because you can still fit large numbers of them. Not that they're 'bad' in higher point totals.

At 510pt. you can do Dwarves x4, Mogrimm, Migol. But like you said best Dwarf army is tough to pin down, because I think they're way more spashable than the other two. You could also say Dwarves x3, Major Q9, AE or something is competing for it.
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  #15  
Old October 21st, 2019, 08:22 AM
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Re: Romans, Axegrinders, or Deathchasers?

Also, I made this thread into a poll.
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