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  #3817  
Old October 20th, 2019, 01:23 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

I have been contemplating Olog over the last few weeks and I have made changes to him. The powers are similar to the origional but I personaly prefer these new ones. I still need to test him with the new powers, but just wanted to see what people thought.
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  #3818  
Old October 20th, 2019, 02:14 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Well met!


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Long eared bat View Post
I have been contemplating Olog over the last few weeks and I have made changes to him. The powers are similar to the origional but I personaly prefer these new ones. I still need to test him with the new powers, but just wanted to see what people thought.








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  #3819  
Old October 20th, 2019, 02:29 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

I think at 50 Points he's actually been powered up so that he's less interesting than he would have been were he lower. I thought he was cooler as an ambush predator who can't really take hits.


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  #3820  
Old October 20th, 2019, 02:57 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazy Orang View Post
I think at 50 Points he's actually been powered up so that he's less interesting than he would have been were he lower. I thought he was cooler as an ambush predator who can't really take hits.
He still is a ambush predator and can't survive that long. I think at a lower price he was too powerful with the bonding and wasn't as fun to play in non bonding armies.
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  #3821  
Old October 20th, 2019, 03:01 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
OK, back to Valiant. I took the squad restriction from your power, but I'll be glad to make it figures. As to restricting it to Ullar, that is way too limiting. The Romans, in today's meta, need all the help they can get. I want them to benefit from the possibility of being moved by Battle Cry and then being able to move/screen and/or attack right behind her. She would also be so much more useful in a Valiant army.
Romans donít need extra special help. They are a 50 point 4-man squad with tons of synergy already. Even if they do die like flies (when Shield Wall isnít active), they are definitely worth 50 points.

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  #3822  
Old October 20th, 2019, 03:11 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by kolakoski View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by BiggaBullfrog View Post

I definitely don't think she should be Relentless, though. Death Knight bonding is a step too far in my opinion. Just being a Warlord is fine, and Valiant fit her powers well.

I also definitely think you should keep the movement power to boosting only Ullar figures (squad-only optional, maybe, I'd have to look at the heroes more closely first). Romans don't need the help to be better for one, and moving any squad in the game is way too nuts.

OK, back to Valiant. I took the squad restriction from your power, but I'll be glad to make it figures. As to restricting it to Ullar, that is way too limiting. The Romans, in today's meta, need all the help they can get. I want them to benefit from the possibility of being moved by Battle Cry and then being able to move/screen and/or attack right behind her. She would also be so much more useful in a Valiant army.

No, Romans really don't need "all the help they can get." Romans are already one of the best bonding squads in the game and are a solid A- in VC meta. As a comparison, VC usually aims for around the B level.

Moving any figures in your army, as you currently have it, is also way too powerful. Move Raelin for free? Hard pass. I strongly recommend limiting it to Ullar, probably Ullar squad figures (because Theracus). It's thematic and restrained, doesn't require considering every figure in the game to see where her power level is, and doesn't limit future design space.

Also, LO has a good point about the name "A Soldier's Endurance." Perhaps something to call into her nature as valiant leader would help, such as "Valiant Push/Assault."

Quote:
There was some push back against it, but I think the inclusion of Enslave 17 cries out for Demetria to have Succubus as her Species.
Like Scytale, I don't think Succubus fits as a species and preferred Undead (partially because I still think making her a vampire is coolest, but that's me). But I think Succubus could maybe work as the class? Though Succubi are traditionally demons.
(Edit - Looking at her power set again, I think it would be worth considering dropping Sonic Sword SA to 3 Attack to give some gameplay choice between using it vs her normal attack.)

As for pricing, I think Rania is looking to land somewhere in the 130-150 range (assuming the Ullar restriction), and Demetria is probably somewhere 110-130.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazy Orang View Post
I think at 50 Points he's actually been powered up so that he's less interesting than he would have been were he lower. I thought he was cooler as an ambush predator who can't really take hits.
Isn't that what he is right now? Stats-wise, I mean. I do think his price could come down to as low as 35 potentially, comparing him with other similar figures in that point range like Maltis Tez and Siiv. (Or upping the power to Ambush 3 would be interesting and probably make him worth 50 or a tad more.)
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  #3823  
Old October 20th, 2019, 04:29 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Well met!


Arrrgh! OK. I hear you, and take all your points.




RANIA REYJYRE

General Ullar

Unique Hero
Species Elf
Class Warlord
Personality Valiant

Size Medium 5

Life 5
Move 5
Range 1
Attack 4
Defense 4


Points 130


VALIANT CHARGE
After moving and attacking with Rania, you may reveal the X Marker and move Rania up to 3 additional spaces and attack one additional time. Rania will take any leaving engagement attacks when moving with Valiant Charge.


ULLAR BATTLE CRY
After Rania destroys an opponent's figure with a normal attack, you may move 3 squad figures you control who follow Ullar up to 3 spaces each.





DEMETRIA REYJYRE

General Utgar

Unique Hero
Species Undead
Class Warrior
Personality Terrifying


Medium 5

Life 5
Move 5
Range 1
Attack 4
Defense 4


Points 130

LIFE DRAIN
Each time Demetria destroys a figure, you may remove a wound from this Army Card. Demetria cannot Life Drain destructible objects.

SONIC SWORD
Range 1, Attack 3
Choose a figure to attack. You may also choose another figure adjacent to the targeted figure to be affected by Sonic Sword. Roll attack dice once for both figures.

ENSLAVE 17
When revealing an order marker on Demetria, after taking Demetria's turn, you may choose any Unique Hero figure within 4 spaces of Demetria. Roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 17 or higher, take temporary control of the chosen Hero and innediately take a turn with that Hero. At the end of that turn, control of the chosen Hero returns to its previous owner. All order markers that were on the figure's Army Card will stay on the Army Card.





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  #3824  
Old October 20th, 2019, 09:40 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf_It View Post
They appear to be very similar to the Ebon Armor, in a good way. I Like them a lot. The Utah NHSD was earlier today. Reverse the whip format, I ran all three Unique Samurai Squads, and the Ebon Armor. (3 wins, 1 loss) I think that 4 of these guys would be about as good as the Ebon Armor in that army, but these guys also work with the common Archers. The Ebon Armor is 125 (and in my opinion a little over priced) and they only work on Unique figures, and you're never going to be able to have more than 4 of them on the field. Because of all that, and the potential of moving and attacking with more than 4 of them, I'd suggest bumping them to 30 points.
Thanks! The Ebon Armor were definitely an inspiration--I keep meaning to proxy them someday. Congrats on the wins.

I'm hesitant to bump the points further. I like the weird point value at 25--it slots in nicely with the TSA's 65 points, and it stacks to 50 or 75 to give Samurai builds more options for filler. At 30, 2x of them competes directly with the Izumi Samurai and 4x conflicts with the Tagawa Samurai, so they'd find less use in non-archer builds. Once you can start affording the other squads, they've often proven to be the better choice.

Also, the Wave of Fear is actually a lot more difficult to set up than anticipated. Moving and attacking with 5 of them is definitely scary, but that costs 125 points + the dead Samurai, which at best is about an additional 100 points of killed figures. Many games that I've played with them, I realize that I could've gotten away with fewer Seishin than I expected, since the opponent is often pretty smart about not letting them build up forever. So far I've found the sweetspot to be 2-3 for TSA builds and 1-2 for Unique ones, because they do experience some diminishing returns.

That said, I definitely could stand to test more with 5+ of them in the army. I'll need to see them at those higher totals in action more before feeling justified in a price bump.
You have a point with them needing to replace a figure, rather than starting on the board. In some ways starting on the board is a downside to the Ebon Armor though, because you need them to die for them to serve their purpose. I'd have to play with these guys to get a feel for how different this can make things play out. I'm pretty excited for this design though. I hope you see it to submission. (also really hoping a certain soulborg makes a return someday...)
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  #3825  
Old October 20th, 2019, 10:17 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Rania
I can't say that I'm very excited to see even more bonding options for the Romans. They really don't need help. They already have plenty of options.

Looking at the rest of the design... I like Ullar's Battle Cry, and I like the direction to limit it to Ullar, and Squad Figures. Valiant Charge is interesting, but since Rania doesn't any form of disengage, you don't need to include the "will take any leaving engagement attacks" in the ability. I feel like Valiant Charge should just be a another turn. I don't see a compelling reason that she should only move 3 spaces, and not her full 5. If you want to keep it at 5, then consider this alternate idea for the design:
Quote:
DOUBLE ATTACK
After attacking with Rania, you may attack again.
VALIANT CHARGE
Whenever Rania wounds an opponents figure, you may move Rania up to 3 spaces.
Since you don't have a third ability, reusing an existing ability, and simplifying your new ability, will make the design easier to understand. This would function in a similar manner, but would simplify things a lot. It also works thematically with Ullar's Battle Cry, because she will get to move at the same time as the 3 squad figures you are moving with that ability.


Demetria
I like the overall design, though it feels a little boring to have even stats on this design. It might also be a bit under priced. I haven't played her so maybe I'm overestimating her, but Life Drain with a multi-target attack sounds pretty good. With Life Drain, you really want to use Sonic Sword as much as possible, unless you're fighting a lot of high defense heros, just because the ability to affect two figures at once is really good when coupled with Life Drain. I don't feel like there's a good motivation to use her Normal attack most of the time. Sonic sword is essentially two attacks at 3 dice, and that will win over 1 attack of 4 almost every time there's two figure's next to each other. I would consider lowering the defense to 3, and the attack to 5. It's okay if she has less defense, and takes more damage, because she can heal it back, but it also keeps her in check, by making it easier to take her down despite the heals.
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  #3826  
Old October 20th, 2019, 11:25 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Well met!



"Rania

I can't say that I'm very excited to see even more bonding options for the Romans. They really don't need help. They already have plenty of options.

Looking at the rest of the design... I like Ullar's Battle Cry, and I like the direction to limit it to Ullar, and Squad Figures. Valiant Charge is interesting, but since Rania doesn't any form of disengage, you don't need to include the "will take any leaving engagement attacks" in the ability. I feel like Valiant Charge should just be a another turn. I don't see a compelling reason that she should only move 3 spaces, and not her full 5. If you want to keep it at 5, then consider this alternate idea for the design:


Quote:
DOUBLE ATTACK
After attacking with Rania, you may attack again.
VALIANT CHARGE
Whenever Rania wounds an opponents figure, you may move Rania up to 3 spaces.
Since you don't have a third ability, reusing an existing ability, and simplifying your new ability, will make the design easier to understand. This would function in a similar manner, but would simplify things a lot. It also works thematically with Ullar's Battle Cry, because she will get to move at the same time as the 3 squad figures you are moving with that ability."

I hear you. Doing a bit of juggling with your various suggestions:



RANIA REYJYRE

General Ullar

Unique Hero
Species Elf
Class Soldier
Personality Valiant

Size Medium 5

Life 5
Move 5
Range 1
Attack 4
Defense 4

Points 130

ULLAR'S CHARGE
When Rania destroys a figure, you may move Rania and 3 squad figures you control who follow Ullar up to 3 spaces each.


DIVINE MISSION
When revealing an order marker on Rania's card, after taking Rania's turn, you may reveal the "X" order marker that is on Rania's card and take another turn with Rania. During this additional turn, Rania adds 2 to her normal attack against Undead figures.

No more Warlord, back to Soldiering, but she's still a leader. I like Divine Mission here as it is another link to Demetria (+2 attack against her). Without Disengage, +3 movement through wounding in what is now Ullar's Charge isn't worth separate wording. The potential synergy between Divine Mission and Ullar's Charge is fascinating.




"Demetria
I like the overall design, though it feels a little boring to have even stats on this design. It might also be a bit under priced. I haven't played her so maybe I'm overestimating her, but Life Drain with a multi-target attack sounds pretty good. With Life Drain, you really want to use Sonic Sword as much as possible, unless you're fighting a lot of high defense heros, just because the ability to affect two figures at once is really good when coupled with Life Drain. I don't feel like there's a good motivation to use her Normal attack most of the time. Sonic sword is essentially two attacks at 3 dice, and that will win over 1 attack of 4 almost every time there's two figure's next to each other. I would consider lowering the defense to 3, and the attack to 5. It's okay if she has less defense, and takes more damage, because she can heal it back, but it also keeps her in check, by making it easier to take her down despite the heals."

No problem with these changes.





DEMETRIA REYJYRE

General Utgar

Unique Hero
Species Undead
Class Warrior
Personality Terrifying


Medium 5

Life 5
Move 5
Range 1
Attack 5
Defense 3


Points 130

LIFE DRAIN
Each time Demetria destroys a figure, you may remove a wound from this Army Card. Demetria cannot Life Drain destructible objects.

SONIC SWORD
Range 1, Attack 3
Choose a figure to attack. You may also choose another figure adjacent to the targeted figure to be affected by Sonic Sword. Roll attack dice once for both figures.

ENSLAVE 17
When revealing an order marker on Demetria, after taking Demetria's turn, you may choose any Unique Hero figure within 4 spaces of Demetria. Roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 17 or higher, take temporary control of the chosen Hero and innediately take a turn with that Hero. At the end of that turn, control of the chosen Hero returns to its previous owner. All order markers that were on the figure's Army Card will stay on the Army Card.






Next Generation

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  #3827  
Old October 20th, 2019, 11:46 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf_It View Post
Rania
I can't say that I'm very excited to see even more bonding options for the Romans. They really don't need help. They already have plenty of options.
The Armocs, though...

@kolakoski , you keep making a bunch of changes each time someone says anything about your design. I think you're bending a little too quickly to each person before there's any further feedback about it, and it makes giving feedback on your designs hard since they change so quickly.

I do like the 5/3 change to Demetria. I thought Rania was in a great place. That's all I'll say for now, I think you should be more loyal to the vision you have for your designs than to the feedback who don't have the inside vision you have (including myself). (And if I'm wrong and you feel like you are getting to where you want the designs to be, feel free to ignore this.)
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  #3828  
Old October 21st, 2019, 12:06 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by BiggaBullfrog View Post
@kolakoski , you keep making a bunch of changes each time someone says anything about your design. I think you're bending a little too quickly to each person before there's any further feedback about it, and it makes giving feedback on your designs hard since they change so quickly.
Agreed. This may be a Workshop Thread..but typically itís appreciated by those who participate in giving feedback that the unit has a clear vision and some playtesting already done. I view this thread as a place to go for fine tuning rather than a full rework and the reworks here are changing so much this is something that needs to happen in your own customs thread.

My suggestion on an SoV submission process:
1) design the unit how YOU want it in your customs thread
2) look for feedback and workshopping in YOUR customs thread
3) playtest your Version of the unit 2-3 times
4) make adjustments as needed and ask for feedback in YOUR thread until you come to a point where you like it
5) playtest it another 2-3 more times
6) repeat #4 and #5 as much as you feel itís needed
7) THEN come to the Pre-SoV workshop with a clear vision and some testing to back up the design. Doing this will make it a lot easier for people to give good honest feedback and help you refine a design.
repeat #4&5 as needed until the design is at a point where you as the designer can say itís ready to Submit.
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