The Workbook of Aragorn

[capsocrates]

Reserved for workbook


I do not recommend posting in this thread yet; your post will get washed over in a sea of quotes.

[capsocrates]

Reserved for tracking

[capsocrates]

Originally Posted by infectedsloth

I'm fine with two Aragorn's, but I think we first attempt at making one, to see if it's plausible. If we make two it should be King Elessar and the Ranger, with transitional powers going to which ever one it more fits with.

Originally Posted by Son of Arathorn

Aragorn- I think this is one of the characters that would require 2 separate designs. Aragorn as Strider and Aragorn as Elessar are completely different. One is a ranger, one is a king. Since we're starting with the fellowship, let's focus on the ranger for now. Since he's out in the wild, Tracking could be on the power table. He should be fairly quick and tough to wound from afar, symbolizing his abilities to elude the enemy. Whether or not to give him Anduril is a decent question here, as it's not reforged until the fellowship sets out from Rivendell. I think he ought to have a ranged attack, the guy does carry a bow. But on the whole, high life/mediocre defense values could work here.

Originally Posted by capsocrates

Hm... maybe its because I haven't read the Return as much as I've read the first two books, but it seems like Aragorn as a Ranger and then Aragorn beginning when he's hunting the Uruk-Hai and going all the way to Pellenor fields are two more representative ideas. When I think "King Elessar" I think of him mostly after the ring has been destroyed, so maybe we mean the same thing?

I don't mind trying to represent Aragorn in just one character--we can try.

Originally Posted by Joseph Sweeney

I don't have much time right now, so I'm only going to say this:

• I would like to see something more of the ranger side of Arogorn, because I believe that is the personallity he generally shows throught the book. That being said I wouldn't be opposed to a half/half sort of Aragorn. Also for a power I would like to see a:Summon the Oath Breakers ability, something to the degree of Iskra's summons.

Originally Posted by boromir96

I definitely want to see at least 2 versions of Aragorn, maybe even 3.(Ranger, King, and maybe one in between)

Originally Posted by faure

For a Fellowship-themed set, I'd focus on Strider, Ranger of the North. That would emphasize stealthy movement (e.g. Ghost Walk) and maybe defensive skills rather than powers of command/leadership.

Originally Posted by boromir96

Taken from Arch Vile's LotR customs,

THE FELLOWSHIP
After revealing an order marker on this card and taking a turn with Aragorn, you may take a turn with any one other figure you control with The Fellowship special power.

Thoughts? I think it's a nice way of helping the fellowship work together, and gives you a lot of options as well as eliminating the OM problems that come with a bunch of Heroes..

Originally Posted by capsocrates

I've thought of a power just like that as well. I'm opposed to limiting the Fellowship to only having synergy with itself since our goal is for our units to integrate more or less seamlessly with classic figures--an ability like that would ensure that our Fellowship heroes would rarely be used with other armies. I also don't want bonding for the whole fellowship.

I could see some sort of bonding or synergy between Legolas and Gimli, maybe routed through our second Aragorn, but I would prefer it refer to "elf heroes" or "heroes with X personality." That's a bridge we will cross when we get to it.

Long story short, I'm opposed to that power for this project. Although it would be a great power for different circumstances.

Originally Posted by Good Pig

I have to agree with caps. I don't think all of the Fellowship members need to bond. They can have complimetary powers that make you want to draft them together. Bonding seems best thematically to represent close ties. I could see some figures with bonding like Frodo with Hobbits or Thorin Oakenshield with Dwarves, but don't think Gandalf or Aragorn would need it. Also not a big fan of having more than 3 powers per army card, unless in a rare case it's absolutely neccessary.

Originally Posted by Good Pig

I'll try to test it out and see how it feels. Sometimes trying to explain/theoryscaping only adds to the confusion.

I had some other thoughts on the movement power.

What if we renamed this and did something like it on Aragorn's card (Strider version) to depict him leading the Fellowship? Since he's a ranger it makes sense that he's leading the way too.

Originally Posted by faure

I do like the idea of putting Leadership with Aragorn, and using the Shield of the Istari with Gandalf. Seems more in line with the stories.

Originally Posted by capsocrates

I don't know if this Istari Shield is present in the books, but I haven't read them in a long time. It doesn't seem to me like a significant enough trait of Gandalf to merit giving him a special power for it. If we were to implement it, it seems more like a once-a-game power than a once-a-round power.

I would prefer we keep Gandalf the Grey as the leader of the Fellowship. I would rather use a modified FOOL'S HOPE on our second Aragorn. I'm thinking that our Strider will focus on Aragorn as a Ranger, with one cheerleader power to represent his role in the fellowship.

More to come.

[capsocrates]

continued

Originally Posted by Good Pig

I know this was shot down earlier, but having a Strider version of Aragorn with a renamed Fool's Hope (Ranger of the North?) would be a great fit IMO. Being a ranger he knows the lay of the land and would fit the role of "guide" (movement bonding).

This would give you reason to draft both Gandalf and Aragorn on to the same team. Aragorn to push the team forward and Gandalf to get them out of a pickle.

The rest of the Fellowship would fall in place nicely.

Originally Posted by Good Pig

... With a future Aragorn having a power like this...

Originally Posted by capsocrates

... the idea of pairing Gandalf and Aragorn as complimentary halves for leading the fellowship holds a certain appeal to me--especially if we can work it out in such a way that Aragorn can still effectively lead the Fellowship after Gandalf is gone, which I believe we could achieve with your proposals.

[capsocrates]

continued

Originally Posted by infectedsloth

[Re: Merry and Pippin]... Their is no doubt in my mind that the version with the movement bonding will be more useful, but I want to see if the other version in workable. Movement bonding can't become are go to power, we need variety. Gandalf already has movement bonding, Frodo and Sam are prime candidates, in my mind better then Merry and Pippin. In addition I could see a movement power for Aragorn and Boromir. That's 7 of the 9 walkers, which is unacceptable. We have to look at the big picture and plan ahead.

Originally Posted by White Knight

I can see bonding for Frodo and Sam, but I don't see bonding for Aragorn and Boromir (other than Aragorn bonding with the ghosts from the Paths of the Dead).

Originally Posted by faure

I'd tend to put a bonding type power on Sam (to keep him with Frodo), but not the other way around (Frodo's focus is on the quest, not bonding -- more likely to have some sort of Overextend power).

I would not put any bonding on either Aragorn or Boromir. I could see a Summon (Phantom Knights?) power with Aragorn rather than a bonding.

[capsocrates]

continue

Originally Posted by Son of Arathorn

...Bonding Squads I could see, in the future, for one or two heroes, likely Boromir and perhaps Aragorn if we get around to a Dunedain squad.

Originally Posted by Son of Arathorn

... We can, of course, look into bonding squads for certain heroes, and some will already have bonding squads (for example, Gimli with Axegrinder of the Burning Forge). Boromir could easily work with Soldiers of Gondor, Aragorn might end up with a squad of Dunedain Rangers, Legolas with Mirkwood Elves.

Originally Posted by elvenwizard9

Aragorn... Bonding... With rangers?

That phrase just knocked my socks off. I need this to happen.

Originally Posted by Son of Arathorn

That was highly speculative, mind you.

[capsocrates]

and here we are with actual brainstorming/design posts for Aragorn

Originally Posted by capsocrates

To kickstart brainstorming for Aragorn (he just won the vote) here is a draft I wrote up a while back:

I wanted to capture the versatility of Aragorn as a Ranger of the wilds. The book never mentions whether he has a bow or not, but I thought it seemed reasonable and he has one in the movie. Ranger's Assault lets him dish out more damage in Melee, while Ranger of the North provides some short-term stealth and protection for Aragorn and one other hero.

Thoughts?

I look forward to reading what you guys suggest.

Originally Posted by elvenwizard9

A very versatile and powerful hero...
The "Strider" power is very clever, and not to love my own ideas, but I thought that it seems more of an Elfish demonstration of light feet? I think Aragorn should keep the power, but it seems silly for HoME's Aragorn to walk on snow whilst our Legolas doesn't?

I'm loving the Ranger's Assault and the RotN, though.

Originally Posted by Son of Arathorn

Interesting. I quite like Ranger of the North, though Strider seems a bit clunky. I too had a version already drawn up (as I do for most of the Fellowship), here it is.

I tried to emphasize his qualities as a healer and protector of his fellow heroes. I debated throwing in Tracking, or a melee enhancement like +2 Broadsword or Ranger's Assault, but elected to keep options open.

Originally Posted by capsocrates

ew9, I can see how the STRIDER power makes more sense for an Elf. I think of the Dunedain as masters of the wilderness, able to cover much terrain in little time and survive in all elements, so that's what I was going for. I have no doubt that parts of it could be dropped to clean it up while still getting the same theme across.

--

I didn't think about the healing aspect. Something like ATHELAS HEALING would probably be better than STRIDER. I think I prefer RANGER OF THE NORTH over DUNEDAIN PROTECTION though, thematically (and mechanically).

I can certainly see the appeal (to elegance, and affordability) for a lower offensive output and no melee power. As far as the affordability goes, it would probably be more appropriate for Aragorn's Ranged Attack to be 2, now that I think about it. That would be too low to double as his melee attack, though, so I guess we could scrape by with 3 if we decide not to do a melee power.

Originally Posted by elvenwizard9

Now that I think about it, the Dunedain Healing really would be useful to making the Fellowship as a whole powerful, as they need a healing power of some sort. Both of these variations have some form of protection for friendly units, and either would work well. However, I do think Aragorn needs an offensive power, as he is one of the main attackers of the Fellowship. Aragorn vs. Uruk-Hai, any one? I think the Ranger's Assault power could help him school some Uruks.

Thematically, I would choose to keep Cap's version, but drop the Strider power and replace it with SoA's Dunedain Healing... But how powerful would that be? We would need to figure out another way to keep his cost down, or simply design the rest of our units at a lower cost, as to allow them in an army with Gandalf. If anything, I'd like to see Gandalf and the Hunters in a 500 point army. I imagine Aragorn as the most expensive of the Three, though, so we can have a little leeway.

Originally Posted by Son of Arathorn

Personally, I'd like to see us stick close to Aragorn as he appears in the Fellowship, before he takes over as leader of the Three Hunters. So, less combat-oriented than Boromir or Gimli, and more focused on supporting the Fellowship. A healing power, a protection power, and something to differentiate between his range & melee combat sounds like a great outline.

Just a thought here: Aragorn is a unit I could potentially see 3 incarnations of (Ranger, Hunter, King), though that might be too many for some people. He is, after all, a dynamic character, so stuffing all of that into a single unit will be tricky.

Also, for species, are we looking at Human, Dunedain, or even Numenorian? Or are we fairly set on a single one?

Originally Posted by elvenwizard9

Unless we have a special faction of Dunedain or Numenorian to bond with him planned, then we should stick with Human. Heck, maybe make the rest of the faction, if we choose to create them, Human.

Well, I always though that the big break/change in Aragorn's character and role was his transition to King. I figured that the Ranger/Hunter is pretty similar... I mean, the words Ranger and Hunter in and of themselves are very similar.

Originally Posted by capsocrates

I think the Ranger and Hunter stages are similar enough that we could roll them together, personally. I'm open to the possibility of a Hunter Aragorn, but I'd have to be persuaded beforehand that it would be sufficiently distinct from our first Aragorn.

Originally Posted by Son of Arathorn

Personally, I like differentiating the Dunedain from Humans. After all, their line is descended from the Half-Elven rather than purely human blood, and their extended lifespan (Aragorn was 210 years old at the time of his death) could easily make the case for a separate race.

While Ranger and Hunter seem similar, in the story they're quite different. The Rangers wander the wilds, keeping watch on the North and guarding the borders of the Shire. The Three Hunters are a small group driven by a single purpose, relentlessly pursuing the Uruk-hai across Rohan.

The way I see it, Whereas Aragorn the Ranger is a stealthy support unit, Aragorn the Hunter is a melee fighter and leader. The different versions I had drawn up of the two are quite distinct, and capture different aspects of the character at different stages in the story, if anyone wants to see my version of Aragorn the Hunter.

Originally Posted by infectedsloth

• I feel the most natural choice would be for Aragorn to follow Ullar. Going with Aquilla would be an irreconcilable theme break.
• I prefer Dunedain over Human.
• Like most, I think a healing power of some sort is a must.
• I'd rather Aragorn not have range.

Dunedain Tracking
Before the game choose an opponents unique hero. After the chosen unique hero takes a turn you may move Aragorn 2 spaces.

[capsocrates]

continued

Originally Posted by Son of Arathorn

Aragorn (the Hunter):

NAME = ARAGORN
GENERAL = JANDAR
PLANET = ARDA
SPECIES = DUNEDAIN
UNIQUENESS = UNIQUE HERO
CLASS = HUNTER
PERSONALITY = DETERMINED
SIZE/HEIGHT = MEDIUM/5

LIFE = 6
MOVE = 5
RANGE = 1
ATTACK = 4
DEFENSE = 4
POINTS = 120

ENGAGING STRIKE 14
After moving and before attacking with Aragorn, roll the 20-sided die once for each opponent’s small or medium figure engaged with Aragorn that he was not adjacent to at the start of his turn. If you roll a 14 or higher, that figure receives 1 wound.

DUNEDAIN LEADERSHIP
After revealing a numbered order marker on this Army Card and taking a turn with Aragorn, if he destroyed at least 1 opponent’s figure this turn, you may reveal an “X” order marker that is on this Army Card and take a turn with a friendly Unique Hero that is within 6 clear sight spaces of Aragorn.

Originally Posted by faure

Some thoughts:
- he's got far more experience/age than normal humans - I'd go with Dunedain for species
- for general, I think Ullar is the right choice
- Athelas (aka King's Foil) seems like it should go with Aragorn the King (and be able to counter things like the Black Breath), though a Ranger's Healing or the like is fine
- I'm not inclined towards a Ranger and a Hunter version - I really don't see him as that distinct but it's not a showstopper for me if others prefer that
- I prefer him to have Range (he's a Ranger/Hunter after all) but better attack or option for double attack when adjacent makes sense
- I like him having a protection ability (I prefer something like Dunedain Protection rather than the no hit zone option - the latter seems like a benefit from an elf cloak)

Originally Posted by capsocrates

I can see Ullar. How would Aquilla be a theme break? Jandar makes sense for Aragorn as a king.

Dunedain is alright with me, I think, as it keeps him outside some potential synergies for humans--probably a good thing.

I don't think a healing power is a must, especially since, as Faure points out, Aragorn performed more dramatic healing in Minas Tirith (in Heroscape terms, his use of Kingsfoil with Frodo was more like removing a Poison marker or the like). However, I think I am pro-healing power at this point.

I think whether or not I think Aragorn should have range will depend on what we decide on for the rest of the design.

I was willing to be persuaded that a "Hunter" Aragorn was necessary, but this writeup, and what it represents thematically, is not doing it for me.

I didn't like DUNEDAIN PROTECTION in particular because taking wounds for an ally doesn't feel like a thematic fit for Aragorn, while hiding himself and an ally (allies?) in the wilderness does. However, we can brainstorm more if the general feel is against the hiding power.

Originally Posted by White Knight

My thoughts:

- I like Ranger's Assault, and I like him as a melee fighter (but I'm OK with him having a bow for range)

- I think his race should be Human. Elros chose to be fully human, just as Elrond chose to be fully elven. Also, being a human allows lots of bonding options. I think of poor Erevan and Sharwin and am reminded of how they longingly wish to be part of the nine...

- I think Jandar would be best for a general.

- I do NOT want Strider to have healing powers. He couldn't heal Frodo--they had to send him to the House of Elrond and let Elrond and Glorfindel heal him. He's not a magical healer.

- I agree that the Strider power is better for Legolas. Yes, he's a Ranger, but I don't see him as running on water.

- I don't see a need for a Ranger and Hunter version. A King, yes, but not a Hunter.

- I'd be OK with some type of protection power, but I'm not convinced about either of the options yet.

- I'd be happy with Aragorn the Ranger having just 2 powers--Ranger's Assault, and perhaps some type of defensive or other power.

Originally Posted by capsocrates

To keep the ball rolling, here are two (of many) possible syntheses of SoA's and my drafts.

Note that I dropped the ranged attack down to 2 and the range down to 5. The double attack can still prove a potent option when Aragorn has height or a Treasure Glyph (personal items that I think it's likely many of the Fellowship will end up carrying in casual play and scenarios)

Here I removed all range from the card, dropped RANGER'S ASSAULT altogether and upped his normal attack to 4.

--

Do not take this post as a reason to abstain from posting your own writeup if you haven't yet.

--

Regarding Aethelas Healing, I'd like to make it more potent since he's giving up an attack to do it:

ATHELAS HEALING
After moving and instead of attacking with Aragorn, you may choose a friendly small or medium figure adjacent to Aragorn and roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 3-16, remove 1 wound marker from its Army Card. If you roll a 17-19, remove up to 2 wound markers from its Army Card. If you roll a 20 or higher, remove up to 3 wound markers from its Army Card. See my post responding to WK below.

I like that he has to give up an attack, as his application of Aethelas is not like a healing touch or a magic spell that he can just do instantly. Thematically he should probably have to sacrifice his move to use it also, but that would probably make it to restrictive in gameplay terms so I'm alright with that part as-is.

Originally Posted by faure

agree.

Good point. He is human, just long-lived.

Not convinced on this one, though would lean more towards Jandar than Aquilla after Ullar.

True, but Frodo's wound was magical. Quite agree he would not be a magical healer, but more like a Field Medic.

agree.

I think it needs more brainstorming as well, but think this would be natural - he was very protective of largely defenseless hobbits at Weathertop.

Would work for me. Might almost be inclined towards something like Tandros' Combat Challenge.

Originally Posted by capsocrates

Which bonding options, in particular, does it allow? I can be persuaded either way on his race.

I'm open to Jandar or Ullar--I can be persuaded either way.

Strider is not incapable of any kind of healing. He was, however, incapable of doing anything other than slowing the pace of Frodo's wound. This is a good argument, however, in favor of the healing power being more restrained (only 1 wound, counter to what I just posted).

But, as I said in my last post, I don't feel a healing power is a MUST, just that its a possibility.

Originally Posted by capsocrates

I think I could see Combat Challenge for Boromir (I might even have it on my Boromir write-up) but I don't think it fits Aragorn.

If we give Aragorn a defensive power, I think it should be a subtle one. I do rather like the one I proposed. It could possibly be extended to protect more units, but I don't think it should protect too many more.

EDIT: Although I don't think that what I proposed (RANGER OF THE NORTH) meshes well with a ranged Aragorn. Aragorn could become really annoying in that scenario.

Originally Posted by White Knight

Nevermind--and good call.

I just checked, and the only bonding is with human champions. Since Aragorn is not a champion, it won't make any difference.


I'm still adamantly opposed to healing on Aragorn the Ranger. Besides the LotR theme break, giving up your attack to heal only 1 wound is usually worthless game-wise (EXCEPT for dungeon crawls, where you can heal all wounds between battles). Kelda can heal more than 1 wound, but it's usually not worth giving up your attack--your opponent just hurts you again on his next turn and you're back to square 1.

On the other hand, if you can show me one passage in the book where Aragorn heals in the middle of combat, I'll reconsider.

(It's too bad Tolkien didn't give Athelas Healing to Aragorn the Ranger. If he had, poor Boromir would still be alive... )

-------------------------------

For Gandalf, I posted all his fight scenes from the LotR books. Can someone do that for Aragorn (before the paths of the dead)?

Originally Posted by infectedsloth

When did we decide we were making two versions of Aragorn? Based on the voting thread I assumed we were just making one. Aragorn wasn't labeled Ranger Aragorn or pre RotK Aragorn.

[capsocrates]

continued

Originally Posted by Son of Arathorn

The Fellowship's just come out of Moria, orcs on their tails, and he heals Frodo's bruises from the Cave Troll. Not quite the middle of combat, but they're sure not resting for the night. Maybe add an "Aragorn must be unengaged to use Athelas Healing" stipulation?

Originally Posted by Heroscaper Guy

Right, trying to remember if that was in Decipher's RPG or not.

Originally Posted by White Knight

He'll need a fire and a pot of water as well then. I read the Weathertop passage last night--you have to boil the Athelas before giving it. And after Moria, he put the Athelas in steaming water first before giving some to Sam and some to Frodo.

In both cases, they had stopped to rest. They weren't in the middle of battle, and they weren't in the middle of running away.

Originally Posted by infectedsloth

Well in that case healing should be saved for Elessar.

Just spitballing some suggestions...

A melee combat power to represent Anduril. This could be the one power that remains on both cards. After all he didn't change to the degree that Gandalf did.

Some sort of power to represent the fact that he is the greatest woodsmen/hunter/tracker (forgot the exact adjective) of his day. I'm obviously partial to my power below. It represents both his hunt for Gollum and the Orcs who took Merry and Pippin as well as the general fact that he was a great tracker.

Dunedain Tracking
Before the game choose an opponents unique hero. After the chosen unique hero takes a turn you may move Aragorn 2 spaces.

lastly a power idea that is a little out of left field. If would be a power that gives Aragorn the ability to synergies with a wide variety of units that he normally wouldn't be able to work with.

The power represents the way he helps a large variety of forces without them knowing who he is. Some examples are the Dunedain's protection of the shire and Breeland, as well as Aragorn's direct aid of Thengel in Rohan and Ecthelion under the Pseudonym Thorongil.

He's got nothing to do with Dwarfs(Aquilla) but everything to do with Elfs(Ullar) and Men(Jandar/Einar). I don't see the reason for him to be Aquilla.

Originally Posted by capsocrates

I'm also feeling persuaded that a healing power doesn't fit Strider that well.

I think we will make a glyph for Anduril. I'm thinking we'll do glyphs for most of the named swords if major characters. They can be "Personal Item" treasure glyphs that can start on the cards in casual it scenario play and they can only be removed from the card when they die. Isn't Anduril The Sword That Was Broken until more than halfway through the books?

The tracking idea could work. It could even be "pick any unique Hero" or "pick a unique Hero you don't control." That way it could represent him following allies that don't even know he's there, like when he follows the Hobbits into Bree. Maybe even Unique Squad also, for added mechanical flexibility.

I don't see how the presence of those units under those generals would be a theme *break* but I certainly agree he has stronger thematic ties to the other two.

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang

Not entirely sure what you mean by the sentence in bold, but, as far as I remember, Aragorn had Anduril for the majority of the books - I believe he was actually given it when he left Rivendell with the Fellowship. Of course, in the films it was very different and Elrond gave it to him in the Rohirrim camp before he went through the Paths of the Dead.

Originally Posted by capsocrates

Yes I remembered that it was reforged earlier in the books, I think, but I couldn't remember how much earlier. Thanks for popping in; I see you are correct.

I think I would still prefer to make it a glyph.

Originally Posted by infectedsloth

I think some of those changes could work. For my original power, I was just trying to see how the general concept was received.

Fine by me.

Originally Posted by White Knight

I read through all of the battle scenes in LotR prior to the Paths of the Dead:

1) Weathertop
The book briefly mentions Strider rushing forward with flaming brands in both hands. Then Frodo passes out.

2) Wolves near Moria
Legolas uses arrows. Strider and Boromir each take out a wolf with their swords. Gandalf uses magical fire.

3) Moria
Strider uses his sword in Balin's Tomb to fight the orcs.

4) Helm's Deep
Aragorn uses his sword exclusively (no bow and arrow). He also spends a lot of time rallying the troops.

From the books, Strider/Aragorn uses Anduril for all of his fighting. I know that he has a bow in the movie, but in the books only Legolas uses a bow. (And in the books, there are no other elves at Helm's Deep.)

Extending the books to Heroscape, I think Strider/Aragorn should have a Range of 1, with some attack special ability such as Ranger's Assault. We might want to give him a leadership type of rallying ability as well. And I'm OK giving him a tracking type of ability.

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang

Yeah, no bow for Aragorn in the books (explicitly stated that he had none when he left Rivendell, as I recall) and he only uses it once in the films. That said, I did give my Strider weak ranged potential, purely because my figure had a bow strapped to his back.

[capsocrates]

continued

Originally Posted by Son of Arathorn

I'm fine with Anduril as a Treasure Glyph, though I'm having trouble thinking of powers off the top of my head.

If we're looking at an Aragorn without a healing power, the question remains of what other qualities should be emphasized. I like a lot of the ideas for melee offense, tracking, minor leadership, and protection powers we've got circulating. Taking away his range works for me, so long as he gets a solid melee power in return.

Originally Posted by capsocrates

Okay, it looks like we're narrowing things down some. I'll throw this at the wall and see if it sticks:

Originally Posted by Son of Arathorn

The adjacency stipulation on Strider's Assault is unnecessary if he's not going to have a normal ranged attack.

Anybody feeling Engaging Strike? It might be better on a figure like Gimli, but I could see it working here too.

Not sure I'm feeling Dunedain Tracking. I know he's a Ranger (THE Ranger, in fact), but Ranger of the North is growing on me, and if we're trying to capture this character in its entirety pre-RotK, I think we should try to get most of his traits in there; two Ranger powers feels unnecessary at the expense of one that could portray his leadership with the Hobbits on the road to Rivendell and with the Three Hunters.

I'm going to counter caps's offer (yep, before anyone else gives feedback ) with this:

Originally Posted by infectedsloth

I feel one represents Aragorn the hunter. The other, Aragorn the ranger/protector. There's some thematic crossover, but I think there is place for both. Especially with a potential 3rd power to cover other aspects of him.

Originally Posted by capsocrates

I don't see the need for 4 defense on an unarmed figure.

Engaging Strike is a cool power but I don't see it for Aragorn. Or really any one else in HoME off the top of my head.

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang

For my Strider, I went with Resolute for his personality.

EDIT: Sorry, just noticed you'd already thought of that for one of them.

Dunedain Tracking's pretty cool - I see you basically took the concept off some fairly similar C3G powers.

Originally Posted by White Knight

'd by Caps

I still like Strider's Assault (although with Range 1, it only becomes a choice between adding 2 to his Attack or attacking a 2nd time).

To better represent his leadership/inspiration (especially at Helm's Deep, but also at Moria), I suggest we add a modified attack bonus:

I don't like the name (I'd prefer Inspiring Leadership, or something from LoTR). But I tried to follow the wording from Taelord, Finn, and Gilbert's cards.

Dunedain Tracking will work well with Enhanced Attack Aura, but maybe too well. Aragorn is different than Gilbert and Finn because he has no bonding with the Knights. That means you need to spend an OM to keep him up with your army. That's why I made it 4 spaces instead of 1. But I didn't want him to boost Legolas or elven archers.

Originally Posted by Son of Arathorn

My final case for Engaging Strike (and then I promise, I'll shut up if nobody's sold): When I think of Aragorn in a melee, I think of him charging forward, effortlessly turning the first blows aside before wading into the crowd, sword swinging. I know we shouldn't rely on the films too much for material, but if you take a look at the scenes of Amon Hen, Helm's Deep, and the Black Gate, you'll know what I'm talking about.

Looking over it again, I can see how Dunedain Tracking could show a different aspect of Aragorn than Ranger of the North. I like it. Should an "Aragorn must be unengaged" of "Aragorn never takes leaving engagement attacks when moving with Dunedain Tracking" stipulation be added?

I kinda agree with infectedsloth about Strider's Assault. It could do as a melee power, but it feels a bit bland. I think we can do better. Is the destructible object clause there to account for the Door/Wall not being considered figures?

Originally Posted by capsocrates

I don't think I like the ENHANCED ATTACK AURA. I don't think I like an Attack Enhancement for Strider in general, but I particularly don't like one that makes Taelord obsolete in melee armies.

Originally Posted by capsocrates

That's what I see STRIDER'S ASSAULT representing.

I think DUNEDAIN TRACKING and RANGER OF THE NORTH could go well together, probably with an offensive power of some sort.

[capsocrates]

continued

Originally Posted by Son of Arathorn

Sounds good to me. The problem seems to be agreeing on an offensive power.

Originally Posted by White Knight

I'm going to call Balderdash on that one!

Taelord can Stealth Fly and get to places that Aragorn cannot. He still is useful in melee armies. Not only that, but Aragorn cannot be activated by Utgar's orders.

For me, I normally only use Taelord with the Omnicron Snipers--and Aragorn wouldn't help the Snipers much at all.

You might not like the power, but your reason makes no sense. What melee army do you use Taelord in right now that would be obsolete because of Aragorn?

I re-read the Helm's Deep passages. Aragorn's main job was running around rallying the troops. He did it at least three times, and at least three times the orcs were driven back. I think it's a major aspect of his personality, and I'm going to stand firm that he needs an inspiration power (probably attack aura).

Originally Posted by capsocrates

I would consider an inspiration power as more of an Elessar power and less of a Strider power. Helm's Deep is arguably where he really begins to step into the kingly role more than he had before.

Originally Posted by capsocrates

Sure, Taelord is a little more mobile, but that Strider has way more offensive punch and can get into position without OMs. For 40 points less. That makes him way better for any Army that can use his Melee attack boost.

Originally Posted by infectedsloth

Aragorn's transition to becoming a king was a slow one. I feel his deeds at Helm's Deep was during this transition period, and is more of an Elessar attribute.

Edit: ninja'd!

Originally Posted by White Knight

Again, I repeat my question:
What melee army do you use Taelord in right now that would be obsolete because of Aragorn?

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang

My answer would be: none, because playing Taelord, especially in a melee army, is generally suicide anyway.

Originally Posted by capsocrates

LazyO, unfortunately Swordplay has a lot of tricky edge-cases and just plain weird interactions when moved over to a Classic interpretation of power-text. C3G wand-waves all that away but that won't work for us. I love it as a C3G power though.

--

I don't typically use Taelord, but I could see him with Goblin Cutters, Warriors of Ashra, and Anubian Wolves off the top of my head. I see it as a moot point, though, as we're looking to address more of the Strider characteristics of the character.

Originally Posted by White Knight

I looked through the tournament armies played thread for Taelord. Here are the 15 most recent armies that used the Kyrie:

Taelord, Atlaga, Cyprien, Sonya, Minionsx3
Omnicron Snipers X 2, Taelord, Warriors of Ashra X 2
Cyprien, Taelord, Raelin (RotV), Protectors of Ullar x4
Taelord, Nakitas, Laglor, Krav, Raelin, Isamu
Taelord, Atlaga, Minions of Utgar x 2, Johnny "Shoutgun" Sullivan
Rats x5, Taelord, Krav
2x Snipers, Taelord, Repulsors, Fen Hydra
Taelord, 4x Deathreavers, Zetacron, MW, Guilty
Taelord, 2x Snipers, Theracus, Guilty McCreech
3x Protectors of Ullar, Atlaga, Taelord
3x Omnicron Snipers, 3x Omnicron Repulsors, Taelord
Taelord, 4x Stingers, Zettian Guards, Isamu
Taelord, Rotv Raelin, Syvarris, Zetacron, Krav , Guilty
Taelord, 3 x Omnicron Snipers
5x 4th Mass, Raelin, Taelord

Of those 15 armies, only 2 armies were mostly melee--and they were made up of 4x and 5x Deathreavers. (By the way, both Taelord/Rats armies did REALLY well.)

So you seem to be worried that Aragorn will displace Taelord in a mostly Rats army, which turns out to be a tiny percentage of Taelord armies. Usually he is paired with ranged units.

I really don't like how you so quickly dismissed my suggested special ability with such a weak argument. Just say you don't like it--I can accept that. But don't try to back it up and make it sound like an official ruling by spouting that he'll displace Taelord when he really won't. When people do that it makes me upset.

Originally Posted by capsocrates

I did WK. I did say that I didn't like it for Strider:

Then I followed it up with an additional, metagame reason:

And I still think this is true, regardless of what the last 15 melee armies featuring Taelord posted in the Armies played thread says about his use in Melee armies. The +1 Attack Aura is Taelord's space. It is his specialty, and I don't want to take it away from him. Period.

--

EDIT: And the use of rats with Taelord is not a point in your favor. Those armies both went 5-0 and were, I'm sure, very obnoxious to play against. A 140 Taelord for rats means they get an additional squad. Also consider the Axegrinders with that. They wouldn't even need a bonding hero. It just seems like a bad idea to me from top-to-bottom.

[capsocrates]

Continued

Originally Posted by White Knight

You're giving me handwaving and generics. I asked for specific melee armies where you've used Taelord. You're response leaves me to believe that it's zero.

As LazyO said:

You mentioned Axegrinders--but show me one tournament army where Taelord showed up with the dwarves. I asked for concrete examples, you gave me theoryscaping. The truth is, adding an Aragorn with that power is NOT going to take away from Taelord's domain, because he HAS no domain for melee armies. Even in your own battles he won't be replacing Taelord because, as far as I can tell, you've never used Taelord with an all-melee army.

Not only that, but if it's a power issue in playtesting we can raise Aragorn's points. I wasn't locked into 140 points. Make his points 200 and now Taelord is a better bet in ranged armies and probably also in melee armies.

You don't want the power on Strider, fine. I didn't realize we were confining Strider to The Fellowship of the Ring and not including his role in the Two Towers. But since we are, I'll save that power for Aragorn the coming king.

Originally Posted by capsocrates

I don't understand why it's such a big deal to you whether or not I have personally played Taelord in melee armies.

So there's no room for theoryscape in your design discussions? Ever? I think:
180 Taelord
80 Raelin
210 3xAxegrinders
+ filler (or Darrak)
would be a decent army to take to a tournament. or even:

180 Taelord
210 3xAxegrinders
110 Migol Ironwill

I don't know that it has been done, though it sounds interesting to try.

No, he most certainly does. His price is prohibitive but if you want a +1 Attack Aura that doesn't require adjacency, Taelord is the guy you go to. Most people don't do it in a tournament because they decide they'd rather spend the points elsewhere, but the power you're proposing would remove Taelord from that potential almost completely.

Furthermore, if I wasn't clear enough before, Taelord's undefeated success both times he was used with a pile o' rats makes me 100% opposed to reusing that aura for melee figures on any hero that is either cheaper or more potent.

Irrelevant. And for the record, Taelord was used with Hydras in an all-hero tournament on the East Coast. That army placed 3rd of 17.

I wouldn't divide it up quite that way. I think we're shooting to captures Strider leading up to The Fellowship of the Ring and going all the way to his pursuit of the Uruk-Hai with Legolas and Gimli. Aragorn does more in The Two Towers than just fight in Helm's Deep.

Why does it have to be a 4-space Aura? Why not an adjacent Aura like the Viking champs? There are lots of better, less dangerous ways to represent Aragorn leading people. But I guess we should save this discussion for later.

EDIT: More melee armies using Taelord:

bengi in Online Season 13 (active right now)
Zombie Hulk, Zombies of Morindan x4, Taelord the Kyrie Warrior, Brunak, Drow Chainfighter x2

Ixe in Online Season 11
Taelord the Kyrie Warrior, Raelin the Kyrie Warrior [SotM], Empress Kiova, Minions of Utgar x2, Atlaga the Kyrie Warrior, Einar Imperium x2, Marcu Esenwein (admittedly, this is an army where the Minions make an appearance)

MegaSilver in Classic League: Casualties of War
Marro Drones x8, Taelord, Marcu

Deroche in Online Season 9
Warriors of Ashra x4, Acolarh, Taelord the Kyrie Warrior, Otonashi
Skylord613 in Online Season 9
Raelin the Kyrie Warrior [RotV], Taelord the Kyrie Warrior, Zombies of Morindan x4

Originally Posted by capsocrates

If we can't agree on an offensive power, why not a 2-power card?

Originally Posted by White Knight

Just a few final comments and I'm out:

1) The Taelord/Rats x5 army that went 5-0 was in a tournament where ALL Range 1 figures got +1 to attack. So with Taelord, the Rats got +2 to their attacks. That's a way-off-normal case and shouldn't affect how we design figures.

2) Sir Gilbert was given Attack Aura 1 like Finn, so one could argue that he displaced Finn as the go-to +1 attack aura guy. I'd say that Sir Gilbert just gives us more options, the same way another 4 space aura guy would give us more options. Let's make sure we don't confuse new options with replacement.

3) I think you underestimate the Stealth Flying when comparing Aragorn to Taelord.

4) In one of your melee armies, the Minions have bonding with Taelord. You wouldn't want Aragorn in that army, so it's a bad example.

5) I picked the first 15 armies I could find as a random sampling. I'm not surprised there are other melee armies out there using Taelord, but from my random sampling I'd guess they make up less than 20% of the Taelord armies. You're picking out specific melee armies doesn't change the fact that he's used mostly with Ranged units.

6) My point about you not using Taelord with melee units yourself is that it doesn't directly affect you at all. Rather, you are just guessing that someone else might somehow choose Aragorn over Taelord.

7) You mentioned putting Taelord with the axegrinders, but if I choose Taelord over Migol in that first army then isn't Taelord displacing Migol? And if I choose Migol for that army, isn't Migol displacing Mogrimm? Where does the displacement end? Having more than one options does not mean that other figures become obsolete (except, maybe in the Sir Denrick/Sir Gilbert case ).

But, as you said, all this is moot with Strider.

Originally Posted by White Knight

Back to Strider's design:

I was thinking about Strider's species, and it brought me to some questions:

1) Will Boromir and Faramir be Dunedain also?
From Wikipedia:
"In case of Faramir, it is stated that "by some chance the blood of Westernesse (Numenor) ran nearly true" in him, which was rare."

As descendants of Elendil and Anarion, Boromir and Faramir had mostly Numenorian (Dunedain) blood.

2) Is Dunedain the same as Numenorian? Would Elros be Numenorian or Dunedain or Half-Elven?

3) Would Elendil be Numenorian or Dunedain?

4) Would Elrond be Dunedain or Numenorian or Elven?

I really think we need to stick with human and elven. Aragorn, Elros, Elendil, Boromir, and Faramir would all be human. Elrond would be Elven.

Originally Posted by capsocrates

Hmm. I'm inclined towards Human as well, but maybe for our "themey" side it could show as Dunedain.

Originally Posted by infectedsloth

Originally Posted by White Knight

There were northern Dunedain and southern Dunedain. Aragorn was northern Dunedain. Boromir and Faramir were southern Dunedain.

As for purity of the southern Dunedain bloodline, from Wikipedia: "Only in regions such as

Dol Amroth

Dol Amroth

did their bloodline remain pure."

So all the prince of Dol Amroth would be Dunedain (southern) also.

Originally Posted by White Knight

I'm not excited about Ranger of the North, but I'm OK with the rest of the card and would be OK with it as a one power card.