Map Debate #7-Mole Hills vs. Ruins of Pine Tree Marsh

[rednax]

Today, I'm taking maps from the very beginning of the Battlefields of Valhalla, and asking you which you like best: Mole Hills by Jonathan or Ruins of Pine Tree Marsh by Rÿchean?




Use these guidelines for Debate Discussion:

1. Tournament Readiness-Does this map favor any player or ability?

2. Enjoyability-Is it fun to play on this map? Is every game different?

3. Aesthetics-How are the general looks of the map?

4. Use of Material-Does this map use certain terrain in new ways?

5. Uniqueness-What separates this map from other maps with similar set requirements?

6. Interesting Factor-Do you want to play on this map just by looking at it?

Spoiler Alert!

Asymmetry with one set

~Rednax

[dok]

A very good comparison. Two maps that, to be perfectly frank, probably wouldn't reach review stage for the BoV if they were nominated today. As Dignan argued in the BoV discussion thread though, this is not something to lament - it just reflects the evolution of the game.

Mole Hills takes a long time to cross, lacks effective LoS blockers, and is very unfriendly to double-spacers. Ruins of Pine Tree Marsh is a much more polished map, and I like a lot of things about it... but the elevated startzones are a huge strike against it. In the end, RoPTM's one great flaw slightly outweighs the many smaller flaws of MH, for me.

[Einar's puppy]

These are my two favorite BoV maps.

When everyone says they wouldn't even be reviewed now I get a little angry. I think that the current judging standards are way too picky. Look at the maps we've been getting. They're practically flat! I really like a map that has enough height to make it interesting. On Mole Hills it doesn't matter that your opponent is camped on height. Chances are you've got even or better height nearby anyway.

On Ruins, it doesn't matter that your starting high because if you just stay there, you forfeit the glyphs. Height will only do so much if you're giving up the glyphs.

I like Mole Hills better, but that's just from game experiences mainly. I love both of these maps, and I think they're both high quality. Don't be afraid of height!

[Dignan]

Well, I think that both of these maps would at least make it to the review process today. I like both of these maps. Mole Hills is a bit of a turkey shoot, but it's not that bad. Ruins of Pine Tree Marsh is great with the exception of the start zone.

I voted for Ruins of Pine Tree Marsh because I think it is more playable despite it's start zones. Mole Hills tends to clog up pretty bad and can really get pretty ugly for melee. Both maps are solid though.

[rednax]

Originally Posted by Dignan

I voted for Ruins of Pine Tree Marsh because I think it is more playable despite it's start zones.

Does anyone know why the start zones are elevated in ROPTM? I don't see any particular reason why, besides the fact you might have extra pieces, which Rÿchean clearly stated is "A Give-up" in the Fire Isles and Hot Heights Map Debate.

I know they aren't too much of an advantage because of the LoS blockers, but I still don't see any reason for them.

[Dignan]

Originally Posted by rednax

Does anyone know why the star zones are elevated in ROPTM? I don't see any particular reason why, besides the fact you might have extra pieces, which Rÿchean clearly stated is "A Give-up" in the Fire Isles and Hot Heights Map Debate.

Rÿchean is obsessed with using every hex in a given build. I worked with him on some of his maps and he always insists on finding a way to use all the hexes he has at his disposal. I'm guessing those are the hexes he had left over. Plus, he's a big fan of rats and Krav, so this setup works well for that.

[rednax]

This is what Ry posted.

Originally Posted by Rÿchean

As a tireless cartographer myself, saying "Oh, I don't know what to do with it so I will just stick it on the side of the map" is a bit of a give up.

Sticking it on the side of the map is a give-up, but putting it in the start zones is perfectly fine.

And Ry, I am cursed by the "Use-Every-Hex" Obsession as well.

[dok]

Originally Posted by Einar's puppy

These are my two favorite BoV maps.

When everyone says they wouldn't even be reviewed now I get a little angry. I think that the current judging standards are way too picky.

A fair opinion, but at the same time I can understand why they don't deign to review a lot of these maps - the ideas about what is and is not good in a tournament map are much more developed than they were as recently as when I joined the site (a little over year ago). There's really no point in going through the motions of a review if you know what your conclusion will be.

Originally Posted by Einar's puppy

Look at the maps we've been getting. They're practically flat! I really like a map that has enough height to make it interesting.

I'm not sure which review processes you're looking at, but Paved Paradise by Sup3rs0n1c and Inner Courtyard by KCU Master 2007 are both 3-0 to review right now, and you can hardly get more height than that.

Looking at recently accepted maps, I don't think it's fair to call Sidewinder a flat map. There may not be high pinnacles on that map, but it's doing a lot with elevation changes.

Originally Posted by Einar's puppy

On Mole Hills it doesn't matter that your opponent is camped on height. Chances are you've got even or better height nearby anyway.

As I said, it's not the height that bothers me. It's the rolling hills (with no roads) that make movement slow, and the lack of effective LoS blockers. Throw in the central water that creates choke points on either side, and it makes for a very unfriendly map to melee.

Originally Posted by Einar's puppy

On Ruins, it doesn't matter that your starting high because if you just stay there, you forfeit the glyphs. Height will only do so much if you're giving up the glyphs.

Definitely a good point, however, unless those glyphs are either wound, or a relevant attack/defense glyph, the right army can still stall and force the opponent to come to them.

[Einar's puppy]

Originally Posted by dok

I'm not sure which review processes you're looking at, but Paved Paradise by Sup3rs0n1c and Inner Courtyard by KCU Master 2007 are both 3-0 to review right now, and you can hardly get more height than that.

Looking at recently accepted maps, I don't think it's fair to call Sidewinder a flat map. There may not be high pinnacles on that map, but it's doing a lot with elevation changes.

I was really mentioning more of the Accepted maps. Yes, we have been getting a lot of very steep maps, but how many times was Swamp Helix shot down? That says something right there, right?

And while Sidewinder is a lot of elevation changes, it's mostly down through ice. I just don't like that.

[Xn F M]

Well, I voted for Mole Hills. While I do agree that RoPTM is probably the more playable map Mole Hills has a lot going on that I like.

RoPTM is just sort of boring. It's broad and flat, with a coulple little firing perches in the middle of the map. Withough looking at the physical map the los blockers appear to be well placed though.

I really like the rolling hills on Mole Hills, the battlefield is dynamic and there's stuff going on everywhere. I do see issues with the choke-points on the edges but we play alot of melee-based armies out here so if things get plugged up there's generally alot of action going on.

While RoPTM appears to be the better tournament map, I'd much rather play on Mole Hills.

[dok]

Originally Posted by Einar's puppy

I was really mentioning more of the Accepted maps. Yes, we have been getting a lot of very steep maps, but how many times was Swamp Helix shot down? That says something right there, right?

Sure, it says something, but I don't see it as a rejection of height, per se. Things started with an extended discussion of castle build rules, which eventually led to a ruling by Grungebob and me submitting a new map. The resubmitted map was rejected by Matthias for concerns that were related to height and because of concerns about the material demands, and by Dignan because he felt the glyphs were not strong enough to keep it from being a pure king-of-the-hill map. I resubmitted again with a different glyph set, and got Dignan's approval for review. Matthias still rejected it, for the same reasons as before. nyys rejected it because "all I really saw was an open field with a big wall on it" (ironically, it's the lack of height that was the issue there). Kahrma agreed with this lack of aethetic appeal in addition to sharing MM's material concerns.

In the end I agreed with nyys and kahrma's aesthetic criticisms, which I feel are addressed to a large degree by the new version (in addition to some gameplay improvements). As of yet, the new version hasn't received a no vote (I await MM's vote with baited breath).

All told, Matthias was really the only one whose concerns about the map stemmed mainly from the height involved. I do think that if he plays the map with his Heavy Gruts, he'd be pleasantly surprised at how effectively they can swarm the top while contesting the glyphs. He recently voted to review both Inner Courtyard and Paved Paradise, so it seems he's (become?) willing to at least give these sorts of maps a shot.

Overall, I feel I've gotten a fair shake from the BoV judges. Moreover, I've learned a ton from the process of trying to get that map reviewed, and I would probably never have reached the current version without the advice/criticism I got there. It's very hard to get a map in the BoV, but I wouldn't have it any other way.

Originally Posted by Einar's puppy

And while Sidewinder is a lot of elevation changes, it's mostly down through ice. I just don't like that.

Fair enough. Really, this is the point - we all have different preferences in maps. Not everybody is going to like every map, and that's OK.