|
AotV Customs A place for Arena of the Valkyrie Customs |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread | Display Modes |
#265
|
||||
|
||||
Re: [Pod 1] Velkhor (Ob Nixilis, Demon of Spite) - Playtesti
I played a game with kd that I’ll post a full report for later, but in summary it was another point of evidence than Velkhor doesn’t work all that well with Acolytes. Which is ideal.
I’m moving Monday, so I might be out of commission here for a while. After that, I’ll get the op properly updated with testing info and we can move forward on a change here, in point cost or vulnerability strength or both. I still want to see what the spirit looks like when it’s bringing a fairly pricey unique down to 2 dice or less, but it’s looking like the opponent has enough control over how that happens (leading with vulnerability targets or avoiding Velkhor) that it isn’t overwhelmingly scary. I think I’m definitely in favor of a point decrease though. The stuff he pairs with isn’t very dangerous, which means we can start to push him a little to get him into range where he’s playable by himself. |
#266
|
||||
|
||||
Re: [Pod 1] Velkhor (Ob Nixilis, Demon of Spite) - Playtesti
Putting this up while it's still fresh.
Me: Mimring, Tarn, Pyria, Ukushisa vs MegaSilver: Q10, Isamu, Velkohr, Velnesh Went for a 400-ish point "Master Set" style game with several units to test and no Common Squads.
Spoiler Alert!
Some thoughts after the game (mainly MegaSilver's): Shift/Blink had lots of good, fun options around/through the wall, made NecroBlade think of where to position figures that weren't actively involved in attacking. Velkhor's concept of reducing defense is good, but the execution is disappointing. The 1 shield minimum made the Aura ineffective, especially felt bad rolling 1-skull attacks knowing that it couldn't help. Velnesh and Ukushisa could probably swap points, the 5A/6D of the UP did a lot of work. My thoughts for Velkhor specifically: he was just a disappointment. Obviously his Spirit didn't get the chance to be tested, but his Aura did literally nothing. Either too many skulls were rolled and the defender was dead anyway, or only 1 shield was rolled and the Aura couldn't do anything. We talked about it after and thought a possible alternative could be forcing the defender to re-roll one shield, no minimum. That way it still reduces defense (to help the Badru, for example), there is potential to reduce a defense to 0, and it matters against a wider spectrum of rolls. Additionally, we both would like the Spirit better if it mirrored the Aura (like the Viking Spirits). It could also force a one-shield re-roll, no minimum. The other effect this change to both would have is bringing his points way down. Without such potential massive drops in defense, his points could be brought more in line with the results. Arena of the Valkyire - Help create Heroscape's next Master Set! Trade List C3V Brainstorm never not funny Pepperony - 14/09/13 |
#267
|
||||
|
||||
Re: [Pod 1] Velkhor (Ob Nixilis, Demon of Spite) - Playtesti
@NecroBlade
thanks for test and input. so you are recommending these these changes:
Quote:
C3V/SoV cards @ 3/page PDF / LeftOn4ya's Customs (including Jurassic World) / Competitive Unit Alters / New? Start Here! Unit Debates REVIVED - #76 Tandros Kreel vs Torin "Today is a good day to die... but the day is not yet over"
Last edited by lefton4ya; October 5th, 2020 at 10:44 AM. |
#268
|
||||
|
||||
Re: [Pod 1] Velkhor (Ob Nixilis, Demon of Spite) - Playtesti
I like the change to Frailty.
|
#269
|
||||
|
||||
Re: [Pod 1] Velkhor (Ob Nixilis, Demon of Spite) - Playtesti
I like the changes to the frailty ability. Just to clarify. When your opponent rolls defense, "You may reroll one of the shields" or "you may make the opponent reroll one of the shields." I think I'd prefer to roll your opponents dice.
I know I'm not part of the design group in here but have a suggestion based on the feedback that I've been reading. Here goes. This guy has one real ability while he is alive. The second ability is awesome, but the first one is a little lackluster. I really like the reroll the defense kind of deal. Why not double down and let the player controlling Velkhor reroll all shields 1 time. That would make the guy pretty exciting to play and really go for a real frailty vibe. He is a demon darklord, why not make him scary. Check out my ebay where you can find my custom dice trays and dicetowers: https://www.ebay.com/usr/captainamazing_jerdo |
#270
|
||||
|
||||
Re: [Pod 1] Velkhor (Ob Nixilis, Demon of Spite) - Playtesti
I’ve got some thoughts about the proposed changes to Frailty Aura (forcing your opponent to reroll one shield whenever they roll defense). First I wanted to note that this change would be a pretty dramatic adjustment, as I believe an aura like that would likely be VERY powerful and probably necessitate an increase in point cost.
Forcing your opponent to reroll one shield is much better than reducing their defense by 1. I think it's even better than Taelord’s aura (increasing friendly attack by 1). For example, when rolling an extra attack die, there's a 50% chance that the attack will deal 1 more wound than it would otherwise. But when rerolling an enemy shield, there's a 67% chance that the attack will deal 1 more wound than it would otherwise, provided that at least one skull and one shield were rolled to begin with. There’s other differences, of course, most significantly something like Taelord needs to be near your own figures, whereas Velkhor needs to be near enemy figures, but I still think that all things considered rerolling one enemy shield is generally even better than giving your own figures +1 attack. That being said, I agree that Velkhor is currently slightly overcosted. However, I don’t think that he’s actually that much weaker than most other aura-based cheerleaders. I think part of the reason why rolling extra attack or defense "feels" more powerful than rerolls or Velkhor's current aura is that you can't tell as easily when rolling the extra attack or defense is irrelevant. Rolling an extra attack is "always on" so to speak, so it always feels like you're getting some benefit, even when in reality rolling the extra die has no actual effect on the outcome of the attack. On the other hand, rerolls and Velkhor's current aura are only applied after normal dice have been rolled, so it's far easier to see exactly when and how the outcome of an attack is affected (or not) by the reroll/velkhors shield reduction. This makes it stand out every time a reroll or shield reduction has no affect. I also really like how the current version of the aura introduces some interesting tactical decisions (positioning Velkhor near enemies with high defense is generally better than putting him near enemies with low defense; conversely, pairing him with friendly high-attack figures is far more effective than pairing him with low-attack figures) that would be lost with the more generally useful reroll aura. The current version also plays really nicely with the Wolves of Badru Pounce Special Attack, as it provides some insurance against unusually lucky defense rolls which could kill your wolves and lets you use their special attack more aggressively, as you can be more confident that you won't lose your wolves to randomly good defense rolls. In a Badru build, even when the frailty aura never "activates", Velkhor can still be useful in allowing you to use pounce on figures you normally wouldn't. As someone who has playtested the current version of Velkhor a decent number of times (at least 5 games with him I think at this point?) I would strongly prefer to test the current version at a lower point cost, as well as possibly either reducing the vulnerability spirit to just -1 Defense, or making it also subtract one shield when at least two are rolled. He is definitely underperforming in his current form, but I think the current Frailty Aura is unique and interesting enough that it would be a shame to completely replace without first testing him at a lower point total. |
#271
|
||||
|
||||
Re: [Pod 1] Velkhor (Ob Nixilis, Demon of Spite) - Playtesti
From a quick scan of the past few pages and the OP, it doesn't look like we have any tests with the Acolytes of Vorganund yet. At ~150 points, I don't think that Velkhor will be too powerful with them, but it's worth noting that he can be dropped into a favorable position and then just passively boost the Acolytes by helping their demons kill things. His low base attack helps make it painful to reposition him, but at a lower point cost he'll become more palatable with them.
From the tests that I've seen, I'm concerned that he feels underwhelming without the Wolves of Badru or bonding in general. I really like how he emphasizes their Pounce and think that it's a great interaction, but I don't expect that our target audience will have wolves lying around that need the help. It's perhaps a similar dilemma to the one that Finn and Thorgrimm faced in RotV, albeit they at least had very unique powers that made them fun to use without the Knights of Weston. IMO, Velkhor is fine falling on the lower end of the power curve so long as he's still fun to play and brings something unique to the table like the vikings did back in their own box. Proud Member of Platyfly!
Custom Units — Maps & Scenarios Battle Reports The Case for a VC Master Set |
#272
|
||||
|
||||
Re: [Pod 1] Velkhor (Ob Nixilis, Demon of Spite) - Playtesti
I certainly like it if he helps the Wolves, since that's why he's a Darklord after all. And testing with Acolytes just to make sure they don't break will also be good at some point, though I'm not as concerned over exactly how useful he is there.
Admittedly our test was very small scale, but it still presents two problems. First is that being underwhelmed is a trend in his tests, and that's exactly the kind of thing we need to learn from playtests. Second, it was a failure as a "Master Set" test; Pyria*, Velnesh, and Ukushisa all felt good on their own. Synergy is all well and good for any of our units, but we have to keep in mind the stand-alone nature of the set for a portion of its intended audience. Arena of the Valkyire - Help create Heroscape's next Master Set! Trade List C3V Brainstorm never not funny Pepperony - 14/09/13 |
#273
|
||||
|
||||
Re: [Pod 1] Velkhor (Ob Nixilis, Demon of Spite) - Playtesti
Im fairly certain AYP did a game or two with the acolytes while they were still in development, so even if there minor changes to them, the interactions should still apply.
My customs. NE Ohio Tourney - TBA SW Ohio Tourney - NHSD 550 points AotV - Colliding the minis of AotP with the world of HS. |
#274
|
||||
|
||||
Re: [Pod 1] Velkhor (Ob Nixilis, Demon of Spite) - Playtesti
Captain S makes some good points, especially about how powerful a forced reroll is. (Also, I'm not thrilled about adding another dice roll to every enemy unit nearby. It's not terrible, but it adds time.) Frailty Aura is, as Captain S noted, better against stronger defenses, so we need to keep that in mind when reviewing results.
I'd like to go with a price reduction before any big changes. I'm going to suggest a big decrease to 110. |
#275
|
||||
|
||||
Re: [Pod 1] Velkhor (Ob Nixilis, Demon of Spite) - Playtesti
The
@NecroBlade
's revision compared to one in OP:
Therefore, I would much rather see a change of power than reduce cost. @NecroBlade 's suggestions seemed good to me, but willing to take new ones. C3V/SoV cards @ 3/page PDF / LeftOn4ya's Customs (including Jurassic World) / Competitive Unit Alters / New? Start Here! Unit Debates REVIVED - #76 Tandros Kreel vs Torin "Today is a good day to die... but the day is not yet over"
|
#276
|
||||
|
||||
Re: [Pod 1] Velkhor (Ob Nixilis, Demon of Spite) - Playtesti
Quote:
Also, I think @lefton4ya 's mathematical analysis of the current power's effectiveness is incorrect? I could be wrong, but I think that with 3 defense the odds of rolling at least two shields is 25% (not 14.8%), and with 4 defense the odds of rolling at least two shields is 39% (not 18%); far from "practically useless." This means that against figures with three or less defense the current version is less powerful than Gothlok's -1 defense aura with its 33% chance of reducing a shield, and against figures with 4 or more defense the current version is more powerful. That seems just about right for a figure with an offensive aura. My analysis is based on the tables found here, so I could be wrong if my understanding of this source is incorrect: http://www.virtualtoychest.com/h/her...capestats.html That's not to say that you should expect the current aura to do amazing things all the time. Significantly, in order to be effective, both the defender has to roll at least two shields AND the attacker has to roll at least two skulls. That's why I said that Velkhor needs to support figures with high attack (like the Badru) in order to earn his points. In my opinion this makes the design more interesting and is a feature, not a bug. |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
Display Modes | |
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
The Book of Ob Nixilis, Demon of Spite | TREX | Official Units and Spell Cards | 12 | August 19th, 2018 09:22 PM |
Spite's Customs - Bloo! 10/11 | spiteofthedice | Custom Units & Army Cards | 140 | October 14th, 2011 12:12 AM |
Spite's exclusive army cards: NEW Tul-Bak-Ra | spiteofthedice | Official Units | 44 | May 26th, 2009 08:32 AM |
Spite's HS Jokebook - UPDATED 12/11 | spiteofthedice | Fan Art & Fiction | 19 | February 1st, 2009 06:25 PM |
Spite's DisneyScape Thread | spiteofthedice | Fan Art & Fiction | 3 | January 25th, 2009 10:59 PM |