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  #3721  
Old October 1st, 2019, 04:25 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

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I'm a really big fan of the D&D heroes. The more I play them and tinker with them I feel that (with a few exceptions) they really nailed balance, theme, and playability. They don't get much play (again, with a few exceptions) because they nailed it *so well*. There were so many heroes (and squads) in classic scape that are just so much better than the average figure, that D&D's decidedly average and well-balanced figures feel a little meh.
A few of them are actually quite exceptional. I used Heirloom over and over once I got him, and I know my brother had a (justified) love for Eltahale, who's also awesome.
Heirloom is probably one of the exceptions. The other ones that leap to mind are Eltahale, Fen Hydra, and Moltenclaw. I might pick a couple others out if I looked at the complete list.
I was just thinking of the Small/Medium Unique ones, otherwise, yeah, the Fen Hydra is a beast. (Well, he's a Marauder, actually, but you know what I mean.)
The elementalist army too.

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  #3722  
Old October 3rd, 2019, 02:43 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

About time I got this design back in here...


Quote:
NAME = DROW ASSASSIN
GENERAL = UTGAR
PLANET = TORIL
SPECIES = DROW
UNIQUENESS = COMMON HERO
CLASS = ASSASSSIN
PERSONALITY = TRICKY
SIZE/HEIGHT = MEDIUM 5

1 LIFE
6 MOVE
1 RANGE
4 ATTACK
2 DEFENSE
25 POINTS

Shadow Shift
Before or after moving a Drow Assassin, you may choose a small or medium friendly figure within 4 spaces whose base is no more than 6 levels higher or lower than the base of the Drow Assassin. You may Switch the Drow Assassin with the chosen figure. Figures moved by Shadow Shift never take any leaving engagement attacks.

Assassinate
After taking a turn with a Drow figure that you control, you may reveal the X order marker on this card to take a turn with a Drow Assassin that is not within line of sight of any opponent's unique hero. During this turn you can only attack unique heros.

Hide in Darkness
If a Drow Assassin is attacked with a normal attack and at least 1 skull is rolled, roll the 20-sided die. If that Drow Assassin is on a dungeon space, add 3 to your die roll. If it is on a shadow space, add 6 to your die roll. If you roll a 1-15, roll defense dice normally. If you roll a 16 or higher, ignore all damage that would have been inflicted by the attack.
A true assassin now.

EDIT: I realize I should clarify the differences from the original version I submitted last year.

• Stats have been reworked to be more assassin themed, from 3 attack/3 defense to 4 attack/ 2 defense. They will rely on Hide in Darkness more as a result.
• Shadow Shift does not containing any kind of bonding. It also does not require line of sight, but has been reduced to 4 range. This can setup some very interesting assassinate plays with line of sight blockers.
• Sneak attack has been removed.
• Assassinate is a new power that I believe is more thematic for an assassin. It has it's restrictions that can be played around by both players. The more useful it is, which is generally when there are more heros, the harder it is to pull off, because there are more of them to see you. Even if you can't attack a unique hero, or if they don't have any, Assassinate can still be useful for positioning.

Last edited by Leaf_It; October 3rd, 2019 at 04:36 AM.
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  #3723  
Old October 3rd, 2019, 04:10 AM
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All Your Pie All Your Pie is offline
 
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

The powers seem a little wordy, and the payoff doesn’t seem worth the setup. It feels like there’s a more elegant design possible here while keeping some of the same elements.

This is a wild idea, and it might just seem silly to me when I wake up tomorrow morning, but it might be workable to combine Shadow Shift and Assassinate into one power—so when you reveal the X, the drow can shift before it takes its turn. For a little more punch, you could also allow the power to activate any number of assassins, so long as they aren’t within clear sight of an enemy hero. That’s a very restrictive condition, so you can afford to offer a fairly decent reward for fulfilling it.

That’s my 1-in-the-morning take, though, so make of it what you will. I like a lot of the individual elements you have going on here but it’s hard to get past seeing that much text on a 25 point common.
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  #3724  
Old October 3rd, 2019, 04:14 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

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Originally Posted by All Your Pie View Post
The powers seem a little wordy, and the payoff doesn’t seem worth the setup. It feels like there’s a more elegant design possible here while keeping some of the same elements.

This is a wild idea, and it might just seem silly to me when I wake up tomorrow morning, but it might be workable to combine Shadow Shift and Assassinate into one power—so when you reveal the X, the drow can shift before it takes its turn. For a little more punch, you could also allow the power to activate any number of assassins, so long as they aren’t within clear sight of an enemy hero. That’s a very restrictive condition, so you can afford to offer a fairly decent reward for fulfilling it.

That’s my 1-in-the-morning take, though, so make of it what you will. I like a lot of the individual elements you have going on here but it’s hard to get past seeing that much text on a 25 point common.
There might be a more elegant way to word it, but Shadow shift makes every turn these guys take very fun. With no bonding, they need a good way to get to their targets, and shadow shift offers that mobility. The design could play interestingly enough without Assassinate, but Assassinate, at least in my opinion, really sells the assassin theme, as apposed to just a Drow Rogue, or something.

Merging Assassinate and Shadow Shift would basically be the old version of Shadow Shift from my original submission, but locked to the X order marker. I don't think it's as interesting to lock the Shift part of the ability behind the X order marker. I actually would rather remove the potential extra turn entirely than to restrict Shadow Shift.

In regards to the amount of text, I direct you to the other 25 point Drow card, the Drow Chain Fighter, who's card is also just as wordy.

You weren't a judge at the time, but this is the second iteration I'm planning to submit to the SoV. The original version was even wordier, and had bonding. It also passed the initial voting phase, but failed internal review.

Here's that OLD card:

Last edited by Leaf_It; October 3rd, 2019 at 04:38 AM.
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  #3725  
Old October 3rd, 2019, 04:27 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

After taking a quick look at the discussion the original submission generated, I think you’ve already avoided most of the same criticism simply by not allowing the assassin to bond with every turn you take with a common drow squad. If you want to sidestep it completely, simply make Assassinate a power you have to trigger by revealing an OM on the assassin’s card, rather than any drow in your army. I like the setup of requiring them to stay out of sight, but there’s plenty of different options for payoff besides a single free turn on the X.

Basically, taking a free turn off an OM on a drow card only if the assassin is out of sight and only once per round is significantly less concerning than taking a free turn for every OM on a drow squad. And while wordy is an improvement from wordier, not wordy is still preferable to both—that said, Hide in Darkness being a reused power does help address comprehension concerns.
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  #3726  
Old October 3rd, 2019, 04:49 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

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Originally Posted by All Your Pie View Post
After taking a quick look at the discussion the original submission generated, I think you’ve already avoided most of the same criticism simply by not allowing the assassin to bond with every turn you take with a common drow squad. If you want to sidestep it completely, simply make Assassinate a power you have to trigger by revealing an OM on the assassin’s card, rather than any drow in your army. I like the setup of requiring them to stay out of sight, but there’s plenty of different options for payoff besides a single free turn on the X.

Basically, taking a free turn off an OM on a drow card only if the assassin is out of sight and only once per round is significantly less concerning than taking a free turn for every OM on a drow squad. And while wordy is an improvement from wordier, not wordy is still preferable to both—that said, Hide in Darkness being a reused power does help address comprehension concerns.
I don't want to restrict Assassinate to the Assassin alone. It does work with just the Assassin, but I want some synergy with the other Drow in the game.
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  #3727  
Old October 3rd, 2019, 10:58 AM
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Scytale Scytale is online now
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

I don't have a problem with the amount of text, as the powers all have a purpose and lead to a specific result. Shadow Shift is really neat for an assassin, and Hide In Darkness is of course appropriate.

I like what you're doing with Assassin, but I feel you are pushing too hard to force theme into a power. Sometimes (often, even) it's better to let some theme slide for the sake of simplicity, gameplay, and/or "it's a game, not a simulation." The power is really focused on hero-killing, unnecessarily so IMO. So what if she wants to assassinate an important squad figure? The "not within line of sight of any opponent's unique hero" is also not only wordy, it's also incredibly burdensome in larger games. Do you really want to verify that the other 5 players' unique heroes cannot see the Drow Assassin from across the table? I don't.

Just the ability to jump in and sneak off an attack at any point (well, after taking a Drow turn) is super thematic by itself. Why burden it further? The line of sight thing is practically implicit in the free turn already: if the Drow is lurking nearby, it may leap out and strike at any point. An opponent has to be aware of that and take it into account. That's all the theme you need, and plenty interesting for gameplay.

Also, "After taking a turn with a Drow figure" doesn't really make sense. Figures don't take turns. It should be changed to "After taking a turn with a Drow Army Card you control." For safety I would like you to change it to "After revealing an Order Marker on Drow Army Card you control and taking that Drow's turn."
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  #3728  
Old October 3rd, 2019, 11:08 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Oh, your bringing this back Leaf? Cool, I was hoping to use my copies of the figure. Good luck!

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  #3729  
Old October 3rd, 2019, 02:04 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Assassinate looks nearly useless to me. The Deepwyrm Drow were mostly designed as baddies for Dungeon Crawls in the Underdark, a set notorious for having less line-of-sight blockers than many of the expansions. It's a cool idea to tie the activation to her being hidden (although it does feel a bit odd that only Unique Heroes can see her hiding somewhere), but it sounds frustrating it will be in practice, especially if there are more than 2 players in the game.

My first suggestion if you want to keep Assassinate would be to drop her stats a bit (4/2 feels a tad high for an Assassin--though you do have precedent with the Chainfighter having similarly beefed up stats, I think that a slightly cheaper cost and reward for the extra turns might benefit the design) and replace Hide in Darkness with some variant of Lurk in Shadows or Cloud of Darkness that removes clear sight for the Assassin while she's on a shadow space. That gives her a lot of punch in the Dungeon Crawls that the Drow are most prevalent in and feels like it would be fun to play with the rest of her kit.

On a different note, I'm not a big fan of tying an extra turn to the X Order Marker here. That feels like it would be very predictable in how it spreads OMs in practice, which goes against the theme of a surprise assassination. If a once-per-round version of Assassinate is what you end up going for, I think that it'd be sufficient to just say "once per round." An extra turn with a Drow Assassin is certainly an easier thing to remember than whether you've used Overextend Attack or not, and that feels like it matches the surprise element without forcing the Drow to play their OMs in a certain way (also useful for players controlling them in many Dungeon Crawls).
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  #3730  
Old October 3rd, 2019, 02:28 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

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Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
If a once-per-round version of Assassinate is what you end up going for, I think that it'd be sufficient to just say "once per round."
Yeah, you can probably get away with "once per round" in this case.
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  #3731  
Old October 3rd, 2019, 02:38 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scytale View Post
I don't have a problem with the amount of text, as the powers all have a purpose and lead to a specific result. Shadow Shift is really neat for an assassin, and Hide In Darkness is of course appropriate.

I like what you're doing with Assassin, but I feel you are pushing too hard to force theme into a power. Sometimes (often, even) it's better to let some theme slide for the sake of simplicity, gameplay, and/or "it's a game, not a simulation." The power is really focused on hero-killing, unnecessarily so IMO. So what if she wants to assassinate an important squad figure? The "not within line of sight of any opponent's unique hero" is also not only wordy, it's also incredibly burdensome in larger games. Do you really want to verify that the other 5 players' unique heroes cannot see the Drow Assassin from across the table? I don't.

Just the ability to jump in and sneak off an attack at any point (well, after taking a Drow turn) is super thematic by itself. Why burden it further? The line of sight thing is practically implicit in the free turn already: if the Drow is lurking nearby, it may leap out and strike at any point. An opponent has to be aware of that and take it into account. That's all the theme you need, and plenty interesting for gameplay.

Also, "After taking a turn with a Drow figure" doesn't really make sense. Figures don't take turns. It should be changed to "After taking a turn with a Drow Army Card you control." For safety I would like you to change it to "After revealing an Order Marker on Drow Army Card you control and taking that Drow's turn."
Would it be enough to limit Assassinate to unique figures, or do think I should drop all limitations on who she can attack?

Because it's locked to Once per round via the X order marker, I didn't think that "After revealing an order marker" was necessary. Even if a Bonding option is ever given to the Drow, I think it would thematic to allow Assassinate when you use it.

I will add "with a Drow Army Card you control." I'm not sure why I didn't word it that way to begin with.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
Assassinate looks nearly useless to me. The Deepwyrm Drow were mostly designed as baddies for Dungeon Crawls in the Underdark, a set notorious for having less line-of-sight blockers than many of the expansions. It's a cool idea to tie the activation to her being hidden (although it does feel a bit odd that only Unique Heroes can see her hiding somewhere), but it sounds frustrating it will be in practice, especially if there are more than 2 players in the game.

My first suggestion if you want to keep Assassinate would be to drop her stats a bit (4/2 feels a tad high for an Assassin--though you do have precedent with the Chainfighter having similarly beefed up stats, I think that a slightly cheaper cost and reward for the extra turns might benefit the design) and replace Hide in Darkness with some variant of Lurk in Shadows or Cloud of Darkness that removes clear sight for the Assassin while she's on a shadow space. That gives her a lot of punch in the Dungeon Crawls that the Drow are most prevalent in and feels like it would be fun to play with the rest of her kit.

On a different note, I'm not a big fan of tying an extra turn to the X Order Marker here. That feels like it would be very predictable in how it spreads OMs in practice, which goes against the theme of a surprise assassination. If a once-per-round version of Assassinate is what you end up going for, I think that it'd be sufficient to just say "once per round." An extra turn with a Drow Assassin is certainly an easier thing to remember than whether you've used Overextend Attack or not, and that feels like it matches the surprise element without forcing the Drow to play their OMs in a certain way (also useful for players controlling them in many Dungeon Crawls).
Fair point about line of sight. I like the idea though, so what if it was "within 8 sight spaces", or do you think I should drop that part entirely?

The Deep Wyrm are 3/3, and the Chain Fighter is 4/4. I think 4/2 is perfectly fitting for a Drow Assassin when those are the non-assassins.

HiD is what saves her a lot at this point. 2 defense doesn't block most attacks, and she die pretty quick. HiD is effectively the only thing keeping her alive in many situations when she doesn't die. Do you really think I can pass a design like this for less than 25 points?

I thought it wouldn't be acceptable to simply say "once per round", but if it's acceptable in the eyes of the judges, I would actually prefer that for the same reasons you stated. The Assassin can strike at any point, and while the X didn't really tell you when that was, since it just triggered off of any Drow, allowing players to keep the X order maker as a fakeout is something I would like to do.
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  #3732  
Old October 3rd, 2019, 02:47 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf_It View Post
Would it be enough to limit Assassinate to unique figures, or do think I should drop all limitations on who she can attack?
Why have a limitation? Obviously killing unique figures is preferable, but why force it? Drop it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf_It View Post
Because it's locked to Once per round via the X order marker, I didn't think that "After revealing an order marker" was necessary. Even if a Bonding option is ever given to the Drow, I think it would thematic to allow Assassinate when you use it.
I don't care about theme in this case, I care about rules problems. If nothing else, if a drow hero could bond (not impossible), then you could take a turn after the hero but before the squad. An interrupt turn, where you need to remember you have another turn still coming. I don't like that, and it could easily be prevented with "after revealing an order marker."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf_It View Post
Fair point about line of sight. I like the idea though, so what if it was "within 8 sight spaces", or do you think I should drop that part entirely?
Drop it. You're forcing theme here and it makes a simple power awkward.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf_It View Post
Do you really think I can pass a design like this for less than 25 points?
Yes, definitely, if the lower point value is the right thing to do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf_It View Post
I thought it wouldn't be acceptable to simply say "once per round", but if it's acceptable in the eyes of the judges, I would actually prefer that for the same reasons you stated.
I'm not as opposed to the X, and kinda think it's cleaner, but "once per round" seems sufficient.
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