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  #3361  
Old January 4th, 2010, 12:19 AM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings

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Thanks for your (gerund) response, Jexik.

I never thought I'd say it, but I strongly disagree with Spider Poison regarding the ratings. It's just (partitive) one of many (descriptive prepositional phrase, technically not an adjective) let-downs at this site lately.
Sarpedon,

You don't have to agree with the rankings. I often disagree with them, but I do appreciate what Jexik and the Itsy Bitsy Spider has done with them.
Who said/implied that I don't appreciate the work Jexik (and Itsy Bitsy Spider?) does/do? Good effort, gentlemen. I disagree with the result, that's all.
I wasn't implying that. I apologize if it came across as such.

It was more like 2 seperate thoughts on my part. Thought 1 -I don't agree with them (well some of them I do),Thought 2 - but they are pretty cool.

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  #3362  
Old January 4th, 2010, 01:10 PM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings

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Originally Posted by dok View Post
Yeah, I really like that one too. Killercactus (and others) have mentioned Q10 as an alternative, which does make sense. On the right map, I think Othkurik is a better kamikaze warrior, and obviously at 490 you don't have the option of Q10. Mattser, if it were 2008 again, would you consider Othkurik+Eldgrim in stead of Drake v2?
Yes I'd would've considered it, especially knowing what I know now, and who knows maybe it would've drastically changed my matchups had Othkurik been in there. Eldgrim would've been solid as a glyph grabber and the black dragon may have helped against the Deathreavers which led to my defeat.

Now that small maps are the norm in the tournament scene his ability to kamikazee has merit. Shadow tiles are also likely to end up on a handful maps which will give the black dragon a nice boost on some maps. It'll be interesting to see if he can become a tournament staple.

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  #3363  
Old January 4th, 2010, 05:14 PM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings

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Originally Posted by MattserTruckRally View Post
Yes I'd would've considered it, especially knowing what I know now, and who knows maybe it would've drastically changed my matchups had Othkurik been in there. Eldgrim would've been solid as a glyph grabber and the black dragon may have helped against the Deathreavers which led to my defeat.

Now that small maps are the norm in the tournament scene his ability to kamikazee has merit. Shadow tiles are also likely to end up on a handful maps which will give the black dragon a nice boost on some maps. It'll be interesting to see if he can become a tournament staple.
I think that his ability is nice if you can get someone to fall prey to it. If he is in on the board, I just have to remember to keep my units spaced out. If I don't put any adjacent figures, I can move in to a map control position while taking pot shots at the dragon along the way, knowing that I'll only lose a figure at a time, maybe none. If you can maintain spacing it comes back to the same issue where squadies are getting multiple attacks compared to one attack from a hero. My favorite strategy would be to bring the beast down to 1 or 2 life and then ignore his 1 kill a turn, knowing that I could take down 3 Mass/turn with only 2 defense. If he only had 1 life, I probably wouldn't even take my counter-strike rolls and allow my opponent to use more order markers on him. With his 3 defense, I could off him at any time. I'd probably have to off him if he threatened my heros though (If I had any!)....just my 2 cents!
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  #3364  
Old January 4th, 2010, 09:18 PM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings

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Yes I'd would've considered it, especially knowing what I know now, and who knows maybe it would've drastically changed my matchups had Othkurik been in there. Eldgrim would've been solid as a glyph grabber and the black dragon may have helped against the Deathreavers which led to my defeat.

Now that small maps are the norm in the tournament scene his ability to kamikazee has merit. Shadow tiles are also likely to end up on a handful maps which will give the black dragon a nice boost on some maps. It'll be interesting to see if he can become a tournament staple.
I think that his ability is nice if you can get someone to fall prey to it. If he is in on the board, I just have to remember to keep my units spaced out. If I don't put any adjacent figures, I can move in to a map control position while taking pot shots at the dragon along the way, knowing that I'll only lose a figure at a time, maybe none. If you can maintain spacing it comes back to the same issue where squadies are getting multiple attacks compared to one attack from a hero. My favorite strategy would be to bring the beast down to 1 or 2 life and then ignore his 1 kill a turn, knowing that I could take down 3 Mass/turn with only 2 defense. If he only had 1 life, I probably wouldn't even take my counter-strike rolls and allow my opponent to use more order markers on him. With his 3 defense, I could off him at any time.
Sure, but...

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4th Mass x 6
James Murphy
(Sit 1 4th)
Suicide Murphy towards your start zone to take out anything he can...then watch while you try to take out 23 4th Mass while I WTF!
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I'm debating how practical it is to ignore James Murphy and just rush the 4th.
You try to ignore Murphy and I am going to blow up your start zone....you can't get everyone out of the way of my FURY!
OK, granted, you were at least partially just talking trash there. But still, if I'm not afraid of Othkurik dying, I can disengage freely, attack your leading figures or the ones on high ground, and sic Othkurik on Raelin or other key heroes.

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I'd probably have to off him if he threatened my heros though (If I had any!)....just my 2 cents!
Yeah, there's a big risk against a pure common squad army, but most armies have at least one non-filler hero they care about.

All that said... I'd be more comfortable suiciding with Nilfheim or Braxas or Q10 than Othkurik. Othkurik is pretty nice on swamp/dungeon maps, though.

Of course, all these "suicide a big hero and then roll with the 4th" armies are pretty screwed if your opponent has Zelrig.

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Last edited by dok; January 4th, 2010 at 10:13 PM.
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  #3365  
Old January 4th, 2010, 11:30 PM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings

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Originally Posted by dok View Post
All that said... I'd be more comfortable suiciding with Nilfheim or Braxas or Q10 than Othkurik. Othkurik is pretty nice on swamp/dungeon maps, though.

Of course, all these "suicide a big hero and then roll with the 4th" armies are pretty screwed if your opponent has Zelrig.
My point is that if you are going to have a suicide unit, it better be able to kill more than one unit at a time!

The difference between Othkurik dying and Johnny is 140 vs 65...big difference.
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  #3366  
Old January 5th, 2010, 12:44 AM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings

Through all my experiences playing 4th Mass (admittedly too much ), I've continually grown less and less fond of suicide figures with 4th Mass. More important than what the suicide figure does is what you are losing by using a suicide figure:

1. You're practically forced to lead with the suicide figure.

2. You're usually forfeiting the glyphs (at least at the start of the game).

3. Your opponent will (usually) have a head start on a race to the high ground after your suicide figure is dead.

Added to that, as lonewolf mentioned, Zelrig can really mess you up. Other figures are capable of doing this as well. I didn't really discuss Concon's bump with Jexik, but nonetheless I agree with his bump based on the fact that I don't really like suicide figures.

However, I do like using Zelrig with Mass. Zelrig is a bit of a different case though...he's fast and flies, cannot be ignored, and has a good special to take out things that Mass might be bad against.

And FWIW, I approve of all changes Jexik makes, but not because I agree with everything he thinks. Rather, I approve of them because they're his opinions and he's doing an excellent job keeping up with the rankings. Of course I disagree with the rankings of some units, but it's only natural. I do especially like the only A+ units being Raelin and Reavers though.
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  #3367  
Old January 8th, 2010, 03:04 PM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings

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Originally Posted by spider_poison View Post
3. Your opponent will (usually) have a head start on a race to the high ground after your suicide figure is dead.
Well said here. The most important downside of using a suicidal unit is you are permitting your opponent to get a headstart towards the most valuable section of the map.

I'd also like to chime in a little bit to though. In addition to Zelrig I believe that Nilfheim and Braxas are also threats that cannot simply be ignored. Even when down to 1 wound they still have the threat of firing three hard hitting attacks. In any case though you put yourself at a serious risk of losing an order marker or two when using any of these units.

The dilemna with Othkurik is he needs to be fast enough to take advantage of his special and be deemed a must kill threat. In additon will your tournament be using maps with shadow tiles and if so how many?

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  #3368  
Old January 8th, 2010, 03:23 PM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings

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Originally Posted by MattserTruckRally View Post
I'd also like to chime in a little bit to though. In addition to Zelrig I believe that Nilfheim and Braxas are also threats that cannot simply be ignored. Even when down to 1 wound they still have the threat of firing three hard hitting attacks. In any case though you put yourself at a serious risk of losing an order marker or two when using any of these units.

The dilemna with Othkurik is he needs to be fast enough to take advantage of his special and be deemed a must kill threat. In additon will your tournament be using maps with shadow tiles and if so how many?
Great points. I also agree that Nilf and Braxas can not be ignored because they can almost always attack 3 units per turn whereas Zelrig and Othkurik could be limited to attacking 1 unit per turn if countered effectively. I also agree that map control is the compromise with suicide units.
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  #3369  
Old January 8th, 2010, 04:06 PM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings

I think, in a lot of situations, giving up the early map control with a 4th/suicide army is OK, provided that the suicide unit does its job. I think often times it's more beneficial for said suicide unit to provide it's benefit since the 4th are so good against what they're good against. If the suicider can take out the unit that's going to bother the 4th, I think the 4th will be happy to concede position.

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  #3370  
Old January 11th, 2010, 11:17 AM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings

And they have to be able to do their damage quickly, because that means that you won't give up quite as much of the map. That's why Zelrig or Nilfheim are pretty good for this. And Braxas- her being one of the best Krav and/or Deathreaver counters out there is definitely a boon. It doesn't really surprise me that Clarissimus was able to make day 2 with Braxas + 4x Mass.

The Q Majors, while solid heroes, are slower to move and slowish to die.

In a completely unrelated direction, how long do you guys think I should wait until ranking the new Master Set? I've got my ideas about it based on earlier testing and how I think they'll fit in with the tournament scene as we know it, but I also don't want to change many people's opinions about stuff before they've even gotten a chance to play around with them a bit.

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(I've also played many matches with great, fun people who were using Q9. So using Q9 doesn't make you a tool. But being a tool sure seems to make you use Q9.)
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  #3371  
Old January 11th, 2010, 11:42 AM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings

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Originally Posted by Jexik
In a completely unrelated direction, how long do you guys think I should wait until ranking the new Master Set? I've got my ideas about it based on earlier testing and how I think they'll fit in with the tournament scene as we know it, but I also don't want to change many people's opinions about stuff before they've even gotten a chance to play around with them a bit.
I'd give it at least a solid month as of the release date. I'm still waiting for my sets, but that's my fault for ordering so late.

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  #3372  
Old January 11th, 2010, 11:52 AM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jexik
In a completely unrelated direction, how long do you guys think I should wait until ranking the new Master Set? I've got my ideas about it based on earlier testing and how I think they'll fit in with the tournament scene as we know it, but I also don't want to change many people's opinions about stuff before they've even gotten a chance to play around with them a bit.
I'd give it at least a solid month as of the release date. I'm still waiting for my sets, but that's my fault for ordering so late.
I agree that the jury is still out for many. However, from what I've seen, there is little chance that you will unduly influence anyone. The people on this site clearly form their opinions independently, and are unlikely to be unduly swayed by anyone's spurious comments.



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