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  #3265  
Old November 23rd, 2009, 01:43 PM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings

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Originally Posted by dok View Post
From a mathematical perspective, these numbers are a bit off. There's not a 5% chance of betrayal on activations 2-6, because you only get there if the previous activations didn't result in a betrayal. However, the difference is fairly trivial. For example, the chance of betrayal after activation #4 is .95^3 * .05 = 4.3%.
Right you are, sir! I tried to fix it. Hopefully, I got it right this time.

Based on the responses, it seems that the main reason to want Hawthorne can be summed up in one word: "Rats!"

EDIT: Upon further thought, Hawthorne is also pretty useful for hacking up the Warriors of Ashra.

Last edited by Vydar; November 28th, 2009 at 11:28 AM.
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  #3266  
Old December 13th, 2009, 05:59 PM
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Restructuring the top.

Hey folks. I've been hinting for awhile that I might do a power ranking revamp. I'm not really looking for discussion on these points, although I'm sure people will want to throw in their two cents. This is the first in a wave of things I plan to do throughout this month, but it might end up being the only one I actually do.

I'm trying to get the Power Rankings grades to more closely follow setup I have in my Tier discussion thread.

People have been asking for awhile to have some more concrete definitions for what it means to be an A. This will still be a largely subjective list, as even after over 100 tournament games, I don't feel that I know all there is to know, and that variance and matchups will always play a part. This ranking list that was originally designed as a fun joke became some kind of community pillar. Even still, here are my attempts at working definitions of the rankings.

Units in the "A" range are units that can realistically be components (either major or minor) in a highly successful [read: tier 1] tournament army. A+ units (now just Raelin and Deathreavers) work with just about everything and make most armies better with minimal order marker investment, and have gotten even better with the release of Jungle. Flat A units are tournament staples, and are often on the tongues of people looking to make more A+ units. Be ready to face them. Play around with point totals to see which ones work best for any tournament you go to: even if you don't play them, someone else probably will. A- units can be equally dominant if the maps, glyphs, or expected matchups favor them.

Units in the B range have all the tools necessary to give you some control over the game and your own fate, but there are often better ways to spend your points. They may have some rather favorable matchups against a few top armies, but will struggle a lot with others. That B+ zone in particular is home to a bunch of potential upset-makers.

Units in the C range and below really shouldn't be considered if you are mostly concerned with winning a tourament, or even many games. If you have lots of experience with them, if there's a quirky army environment or set of rules, or you just feel like it, knock yourself out.

Going Down:

A+ to A:
4th Mass
Isamu
Major Q9
Sir Gilbert

A to A-:
10th Regiment of Foot
Braxas
Kaemon Awa
Major Q10
Me-Burq-Sa
Nilfheim

B+ to B:
Blade Gruts

B+ to A-:
Sentinels of Jandar
Sgt. Drake Alexander SOTM

B to A-:
Concan

B to B+:
Charos

B- to B+
Sgt. Drake ROTV

Old paragraph was longer- summary: Valiant units are good to have around. I still think most of the stuff that went down is good- this just more accurately reflects the relative changes with the A+ category being vacated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fomox View Post
(I've also played many matches with great, fun people who were using Q9. So using Q9 doesn't make you a tool. But being a tool sure seems to make you use Q9.)

Last edited by Jexik; December 14th, 2009 at 11:42 AM. Reason: MBS added
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  #3267  
Old December 13th, 2009, 06:42 PM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings

I'd still rather see Q9 in the A+ category, but if this results in the rankings spreading out a bit more, I'll be content.
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  #3268  
Old December 13th, 2009, 07:02 PM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings

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Originally Posted by Vydar View Post
I'd still rather see Q9 in the A+ category, but if this results in the rankings spreading out a bit more, I'll be content.
As good as Q9 is, he is still a lot of points in one figure... a lot of points that Grimnak-empowered Heavies, Gilbert-empowered Knights, Axegrinders, a ton of Stingers, or Glads/Blasts can take out with decent regularity. Jungle and more high defense units seeing play seem to make it easier to catch up to him and take him out.

He is still the ranged hero to beat, seeing that I also bumped Kaemon, Q10, and Nilfheim into the A- range.

Pretty much anything A- and above is something that I personally would feel pretty confident using in a tournament in the right army.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fomox View Post
(I've also played many matches with great, fun people who were using Q9. So using Q9 doesn't make you a tool. But being a tool sure seems to make you use Q9.)
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  #3269  
Old December 13th, 2009, 09:23 PM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings

I actually don't own any Jungle terrain, so my view of him may not be representative of the current trends.

I do like seeing the range getting pushed down towards C as I think C should represent the "average HS figure." I just hope it leads to a more spread out distribution rather than a more compressed one where most everything gets crammed between A- and B-.
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  #3270  
Old December 13th, 2009, 09:44 PM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings

What if the A- to B- is the most accurate representation of how the units play, though? The way this game is so well balanced makes me think that most units probably should be in that range.

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  #3271  
Old December 13th, 2009, 10:20 PM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings

Nice changes, Jexik. I always felt Raelin (and Reavers, but to a lesser extent) were a notch above the rest, so I do like to see them as the only A+ units. Just glancing at the top units, the only thing that kind of sticks out to me (now with the new grades) is MBS. He's one of my favorite heroes, but he's pretty much only playable with Romans anyway. Still, everything looks great, and I look forward to seeing what else you have in store.
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  #3272  
Old December 13th, 2009, 10:34 PM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings

This is excellent, in my opinion, Jexik. As a long-time fan of the 4th Mass and the Sentinels, I think both shifts are in exactly the right direction. Well done.
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  #3273  
Old December 13th, 2009, 11:10 PM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings

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Originally Posted by Vydar View Post
I actually don't own any Jungle terrain, so my view of him may not be representative of the current trends.

I do like seeing the range getting pushed down towards C as I think C should represent the "average HS figure." I just hope it leads to a more spread out distribution rather than a more compressed one where most everything gets crammed between A- and B-.
As a high school student, I can say without any doubt that C is no longer average. B is. It's just like how when my dad was getting out of school, you could do just fine with nothing but a high school education. Now you're going no where.

Jexik: What are your thoughts on the two new units so far? I know the tournament results are lacking, but I would like to hear your preliminary thoughts.

In school, diplomas have all stepped up. Undergrad is the new high school. Graduate is the new Undergrad. Etc.

Applying this new curve to heroscape, C units are below average, and B units are average. C units look like they might be okay, but they just don't stand up well.
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  #3274  
Old December 13th, 2009, 11:14 PM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings

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Originally Posted by IAmBatman View Post
What if the A- to B- is the most accurate representation of how the units play, though? The way this game is so well balanced makes me think that most units probably should be in that range.
That depends on how you define B and C units. I think the average unit should be C. That doesn't mean that C units can't be tournament worthy units (which is basically what they are defined as at this point). The best differentiation between figures occurs with a better spread. Having the average at C gives you the most room for differentiation. (Though with the removal of D+ and D- maybe that isn't true anymore.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Einar's puppy View Post
As a high school student, I can say without any doubt that C is no longer average. B is.
Just wait till you get to college...especially if you decide to be an engineering major.
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  #3275  
Old December 13th, 2009, 11:24 PM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings

In my college courses, I assign everyone the grade they earn. If most people earn A's, they get A's. If most earn C's, they get C's. There's no reason to impose a distribution on each class as if the distribution of performance was somehow fixed across sections, classes, semesters, or years.

As for the power rankings, it really just depends what you want the grades to mean. Ideally, yes, all the units would be in the A-B range, but for now, that isn't the case. I think you create the criteria first, then put the units where they belong, whatever the distribution. There's no reason to think the distribution should be uniform, or normal, or any other distribution. If there are 20 C's and 5 C+'s, that's just the way it is.
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  #3276  
Old December 13th, 2009, 11:24 PM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings

sp, you might be right about MBS. I might end up dropping him and maybe the romans each a 3rd of a grade. But he's so cool!

I guess the question with the Romans at least is where they stack up compared to the Heavies and Dwarves. Right now, I'd probably put them between those two squads. I'm interested to see if the Heavy Gruts continue to see success in experienced hands over the next year, (or maybe the people who like them just decide to try something else). In all honesty, what's currently out might entice me to put the Dwarves down to B+ based on the recent changes, but gearing up for next year, I'll just leave them where they are.

EP, my thoughts on the new units? Hmm.

Nothing too different than what other people have said in the past-

GG's seem tough, kinda like Minions, but well, different. Probably B+ to A-, but I'm hesitant to really say until more people get a chance to use them.

I was initially somewhat unimpressed by the Quasatch from a tourney perspective, since I was never a big fan of the Monks' overall power level, but that 4th defense makes a big difference, and I could see them doing well depending on the maps. Jungle and Evergreen trees are both pretty popular at tournaments. Thinking about them moving 10 spaces on H&D brings a smile to my face, even though I haven't tried it out yet. I think they're likely somewhere in the Bee Nebula.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vydar View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by IAmBatman View Post
What if the A- to B- is the most accurate representation of how the units play, though? The way this game is so well balanced makes me think that most units probably should be in that range.
That depends on how you define B and C units. I think the average unit should be C. That doesn't mean that C units can't be tournament worthy units (which is basically what they are defined as at this point). The best differentiation between figures occurs with a better spread. Having the average at C gives you the most room for differentiation. (Though with the removal of D+ and D- maybe that isn't true anymore.)
My problem with this is that it's outside of my experience. Differentiating units much below B (or the units which are currently B's) is difficult to do, and especially by the time you get to the C's and D's... those units have a lot of trouble winning against smart players with decent units. I don't know how those units do in tournaments because they are brought less frequently.

Earlier, I got really frustrated with a debate about how bad Deadeye Dan was, because I felt he had no business ever being in a tournament. So I collapsed the D's.

My next goal is to probably go back and fix up my Tier List for armies, and then come back here and make sure that it lines up roughly so that A units are Tier 1, B units are tier 2, and C units are Tier 3, with a little bit of leeway on the +'s and -'s. There's still a lot of work to be done, and maybe eventually, it will line up to have a more even spread of grades. I admit that right now as I look at that tier thread, it looks more like A+/A are what I list as Tier 1, and A-/B+ are the Tier 2, B-/B are Tier 3, and so on.

So I guess from that perspective, I'd roughly think of B's as "average" for a tournament army, but it's different than a regular grading system. And if there are a lot of B's I'm okay with that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fomox View Post
(I've also played many matches with great, fun people who were using Q9. So using Q9 doesn't make you a tool. But being a tool sure seems to make you use Q9.)

Last edited by Jexik; December 13th, 2009 at 11:42 PM.
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