Heroscapers
Go Back   Heroscapers > Official Classic HeroScape > Competitive Armies Discussion
Competitive Armies Discussion Discuss, critique, and build ideas for tournament-caliber armies.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #3169  
Old October 30th, 2009, 05:18 PM
lonewolf's Avatar
lonewolf lonewolf is offline
GenCon General Wars & DW9K Jumpstart Champ 2008
 
Join Date: August 1, 2006
Location: AZ - North PHX
Posts: 2,190
lonewolf is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla lonewolf is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla lonewolf is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla lonewolf is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla lonewolf is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla lonewolf is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla lonewolf is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla lonewolf is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla lonewolf is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla lonewolf is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla
Re: Heroscape Power Rankings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthias Maccabeus View Post
OK one more set of stats then I'm done (I hope) -
I added up all the range / melee / support units and figured out the win %

Range is 1115.5 - 362 (75%)
Melee is 607.5 - 193 (76%)
Support is 636 - 184 (78%)

For melee I left out Glads, Raelin, Sonya, and Reavers, but included Marcus and Gilbert.

For support I included Rats, Raelin, Glads, Gilbert, Marcus, Sonya, and Nerak.

So melee is better than range!
Slugfest cetrainly biases this result.
Reply With Quote
  #3170  
Old October 30th, 2009, 05:21 PM
Matthias Maccabeus's Avatar
Matthias Maccabeus Matthias Maccabeus is offline
Don't Need Range in the Knight-time
 
Join Date: April 10, 2007
Location: IA - Councilbama
Posts: 3,871
Matthias Maccabeus is hot lava death! Matthias Maccabeus is hot lava death! Matthias Maccabeus is hot lava death! Matthias Maccabeus is hot lava death! Matthias Maccabeus is hot lava death! Matthias Maccabeus is hot lava death! Matthias Maccabeus is hot lava death! Matthias Maccabeus is hot lava death! Matthias Maccabeus is hot lava death! Matthias Maccabeus is hot lava death! Matthias Maccabeus is hot lava death! Matthias Maccabeus is hot lava death! Matthias Maccabeus is hot lava death!
Re: Heroscape Power Rankings

Quote:
Originally Posted by lonewolf View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthias Maccabeus View Post
OK one more set of stats then I'm done (I hope) -
I added up all the range / melee / support units and figured out the win %

Range is 1115.5 - 362 (75%)
Melee is 607.5 - 193 (76%)
Support is 636 - 184 (78%)

For melee I left out Glads, Raelin, Sonya, and Reavers, but included Marcus and Gilbert.

For support I included Rats, Raelin, Glads, Gilbert, Marcus, Sonya, and Nerak.

So melee is better than range!
Slugfest cetrainly biases this result.
Excuses, Excuses!

Dragon Dice - (the 2nd best game there is) Learn to Play!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1h3q6...wujcr8vVf8e21G
Reply With Quote
  #3171  
Old October 30th, 2009, 05:22 PM
dok's Avatar
dok dok is online now
GenCon Main Event Champion - 2010, 2011, & 2017
 
Join Date: October 9, 2008
Location: USA - CO - Denver
Posts: 21,705
Images: 108
Blog Entries: 17
dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth
Re: Heroscape Power Rankings

Quote:
Originally Posted by lonewolf View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
Just theoryscaping here, but I could see a very long map being an impediment to 'trons. To pick an obvious example - on Marr Highway, I could see some unique ranged squad/hero (Q10? Zelrig? KMA?) rushing ahead and then sniping at the leading edge of the trons, gradually backing up and giving ground until they finally fell behind a rat/Raelin screen just outside their startzone. The 'tron player would be limited by Glad movement bonding's inability to use the road bonus, and by the OMs required to bring Raelin along.
Dok, did I teach you nothing of this 'theoryscaping'?

Theoretically you should have owned me in the two games that we played right?
Heh, I had a feeling that was coming. I think I was already fine on the theoryscaping, but you taught me a bit about real scaping...

I made several mistakes in the first game, so it's tough to look at it as a pure test of 'trons versus soldiers & warlords. Still, all I had was two squads of 10th and MBS for range, and no Raelin to keep them alive. I'd give your army a small edge even if I play it better.

In the second game... yeah, my army probably has the edge on paper. But at least that game was close!
Reply With Quote
  #3172  
Old October 30th, 2009, 06:21 PM
ollie's Avatar
ollie ollie is offline
Is a Quadradical
 
Join Date: March 19, 2007
Location: VT
Posts: 9,537
Images: 43
Blog Entries: 22
ollie is a man of the cloth ollie is a man of the cloth ollie is a man of the cloth ollie is a man of the cloth ollie is a man of the cloth ollie is a man of the cloth ollie is a man of the cloth ollie is a man of the cloth ollie is a man of the cloth ollie is a man of the cloth ollie is a man of the cloth ollie is a man of the cloth ollie is a man of the cloth ollie is a man of the cloth ollie is a man of the cloth
Re: Heroscape Power Rankings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthias Maccabeus View Post
Out of those 1071 games -
in 342 of them Raelin was fielded. 32% of the time, almost 1/3!!
in 257 of them the deathreavers were fielded. 24% of the time, almost 1/4!
in 181 of them the Krav were fielded. 17% of the time.
in 168 of them the MW were fielded. 16% of the time.
in 155 of them the stingers were fielded. 14% of the time.
Interesting. I matched the rats percentage exactly, but for each of the others I was a fair amount below (most notably Raelin at 8%).
Reply With Quote
  #3173  
Old October 30th, 2009, 09:11 PM
dok's Avatar
dok dok is online now
GenCon Main Event Champion - 2010, 2011, & 2017
 
Join Date: October 9, 2008
Location: USA - CO - Denver
Posts: 21,705
Images: 108
Blog Entries: 17
dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth
Re: Heroscape Power Rankings

Quote:
Originally Posted by mccombju View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
Zetacron to B+: I've never really seen his appeal, and the numbers seem to support knocking him down.
EDIT: Zetacron definetly appears to be at the low end of the A- ranking. The decision to keep him where he is or to drop him down would depend on the final parameters for the A- category, based on his optimal armies' win rates.
I suppose I see where you're coming from, but I think the divide is pretty clear. Start by setting aside the ridiculously small sample size figures -Zelrig, Atlaga, Silver Surfer, and Venom. Among the rest, Zetacron, Skahen, and Sonya are under 60%, while Cyprien and Minions are the only other figures even in the 60s. Everything else is at 70% and above. I guess, to be fair, I should suggest dropping Skahen down as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mccombju View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
Cyprien/Sonya to B+: This is maybe a trifle more controversial, and the sample size is small, but I think it makes sense in the current metagame. Maybe just Sonya to B+? Cyprien is 7-2 without her. Maybe those 45 points for a +2 d20 and a wounded cleanup figure aren't really worth it?
Interesting hypothesis, dok. Looking at the numbers, we see that Cyprien (No Sonya) is 7-2 i.e. 77% and Cyprien with Sonya is 12-9 i.e. 57%. He certainly is a variable figure who can be devastating against non-Soulbourg opponents. I wonder to what extent Cyprien's failing in performance can be attributed to his poor matchup against the metagame dominant Soulborgs... It could be that an army that doesn't invest as heavily in Cyprien (by dropping Sonya) leaves more room for "other stuff" to help address his Soulborg issues...
That's probably some of it. The only common matchup where Cyprien is really crippled is against the 'trons. Against almost anything else, he can generally find something to chill (Raelin, at the least).

Quote:
Originally Posted by mccombju View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthias Maccabeus View Post
A
Blastatrons 65-14 (82%)
Gladiatrons 65-14 (82%)
With an 82% win record among top players, I think it's hard to argue that the Glads/Blasts are anything but A+. To claim anything less is bordeline deceitful.
I guess it's hard to argue with that, except by pointing out that, as you say, they're tricky to play well.
Reply With Quote
  #3174  
Old October 30th, 2009, 11:13 PM
Jexik's Avatar
Jexik Jexik is offline
Et tu, Jaxet?
 
Join Date: July 4, 2007
Location: IL - Elgin
Posts: 6,986
Images: 3
Blog Entries: 30
Jexik is hot lava death! Jexik is hot lava death! Jexik is hot lava death! Jexik is hot lava death! Jexik is hot lava death! Jexik is hot lava death! Jexik is hot lava death! Jexik is hot lava death! Jexik is hot lava death! Jexik is hot lava death! Jexik is hot lava death! Jexik is hot lava death! Jexik is hot lava death! Jexik is hot lava death!
Re: Heroscape Power Rankings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich10 View Post
Doesn't it make more sense to classify figures based on their best use? Much as you consider Glads and Blasts together, doesn't it make the most sense to consider Gilbert with the KOW and rank them accordingly? I would think that you should also consider Grimnak with Nerak and the HG.
Yeah, that's something I'm thinking about right now. If I redo any of the rankings, I'll probably make that change to keep them at the same rank. There has been at least one person each of the last two years to make day 2 of the main event at GC playing the KoW without Sir Gilbert.

Quote:
Since Gilbert isn't a regular member of winning armies, should he be ranked an A+?
I'm not so sure about that. The rankings assume that the player is experienced with the army being used. At a big tournament like GenCon's main event, the Knights usually make an appearance, despite being under-played. Much like the Glads/Blasts and (actually the 4th mass too) I usually only see a handful of people with enough confidence and experience to man up and play Knights, and the majority of them go pretty far. Knights have also been going deep in tournaments in Texas and Ohio. Even though they don't win the whole tournament that often, they're usually up there.

MM's Knights x4 + Gilbert won the Tree Town Open IV, beating me along the way, as well as Slade... who is just tough to beat for reasons I won't go into here. At TTO V this year, a 61 person tourney, two of the four undefeated players after 4 rounds were playing Knights. They played each other in the semi's, and the winner lost to Redcoats in the final round.

My own record with Knights/Gilbert is comparable to my record with Deathreavers, and better than my record with Raelin. (Or Q9, but I only used him in Unique hero). I'm not sure if it's just the armies I choose either, but among units I've faced at least 4 or 5 times, the only unit that beats me more consistently than Sir Gilbert is 4th Mass (and Sir Gilbert was also in each of those 5 4th Mass losses).

It is no secret that spider_poison isn't a big fan of the Knights in particular, and melee in general. I'll say right now that I'm more worried about playing against MM using Knights than spider playing Knights. But spider's Mass or 'trons... then it gets tougher. I'd also like him to play Arrow Gruts again and shock the world, but...

Another reason I'm aware of the power of the 4th Mass is just playing my friend Kaboomboomboom. He doesn't really post much, or even play Heroscape much, but he knows how to play and advance the 4th well enough to give me a tough game consistently. He also plays a mean aggressive Q9.

There are some units, like Knights, Heavy Gruts, Trons, etc.. that I really think it takes getting your ass handed to you by an experienced player to appreciate their potential. Many of them can do well enough in the hands of an average or above average player (just look at my record ) but some require a bit more understanding of how to get the other player to do what you want them to. It's all about patience and familiarity, I think.

If there were a unit that I feel good about, it's Nilfheim, but he's so high variance that even I'm reluctant to use him sometimes.

The units that are A+... or high A's, it seems like even when you know what they're going to do in the hands of a good player, the strength of their defense and attacks still just have the potential to bowl you over unless you're playing a comparable army.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fomox View Post
(I've also played many matches with great, fun people who were using Q9. So using Q9 doesn't make you a tool. But being a tool sure seems to make you use Q9.)
Reply With Quote
  #3175  
Old October 31st, 2009, 05:55 AM
mccombju's Avatar
mccombju mccombju is offline
Warning! Reading my posts may make you smarter
 
Join Date: September 13, 2008
Location: Canada - Ontario - Toronto
Posts: 368
mccombju wears ripped pants of awesomeness mccombju wears ripped pants of awesomeness mccombju wears ripped pants of awesomeness mccombju wears ripped pants of awesomeness mccombju wears ripped pants of awesomeness mccombju wears ripped pants of awesomeness
Re: Heroscape Power Rankings

Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by mccombju View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
Zetacron to B+: I've never really seen his appeal, and the numbers seem to support knocking him down.
EDIT: Zetacron definetly appears to be at the low end of the A- ranking. The decision to keep him where he is or to drop him down would depend on the final parameters for the A- category, based on his optimal armies' win rates.
I suppose I see where you're coming from, but I think the divide is pretty clear. Start by setting aside the ridiculously small sample size figures -Zelrig, Atlaga, Silver Surfer, and Venom. Among the rest, Zetacron, Skahen, and Sonya are under 60%, while Cyprien and Minions are the only other figures even in the 60s. Everything else is at 70% and above. I guess, to be fair, I should suggest dropping Skahen down as well.
I see your point, too, and I'm not trying to be difficult. I'm just saying that A- may be more 'inclusive' than the A+ or A categories. For instance, A- could include figures with 60%-75% win-rates or it could exclude them at the discretion of the 'owner' of this thread (Jexik). As it stands, the A- category is inclusive to figures with a wide range of tournament performance (e.g. 60% on the low end). As you propose, maybe some of the under-achievers should be demoted to B+...
Reply With Quote
  #3176  
Old October 31st, 2009, 06:10 AM
spider_poison's Avatar
spider_poison spider_poison is offline
2-time GenCon Mindshackle and Main Event Champion
 
Join Date: June 20, 2006
Location: IA - Iowa City
Posts: 750
spider_poison wears ripped pants of awesomeness spider_poison wears ripped pants of awesomeness spider_poison wears ripped pants of awesomeness spider_poison wears ripped pants of awesomeness spider_poison wears ripped pants of awesomeness spider_poison wears ripped pants of awesomeness
Re: Heroscape Power Rankings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jexik View Post
It is no secret that spider_poison isn't a big fan of the Knights in particular, and melee in general.
Such lies . It is a well documented fact that I play Raelin more than any unit in Heroscape, and I'm also somewhat fond of Deathreavers. Sometimes I even get carried away and play Isamu. And let's not forget one of my all-time favorites, the Gladiatrons.

And to answer your sig, the reason Deadeye Dan is alone in the first place is because he already pwnd all his enemies. No sense in putting order markers on a figure when the game is already over
Reply With Quote
  #3177  
Old October 31st, 2009, 01:38 PM
Jexik's Avatar
Jexik Jexik is offline
Et tu, Jaxet?
 
Join Date: July 4, 2007
Location: IL - Elgin
Posts: 6,986
Images: 3
Blog Entries: 30
Jexik is hot lava death! Jexik is hot lava death! Jexik is hot lava death! Jexik is hot lava death! Jexik is hot lava death! Jexik is hot lava death! Jexik is hot lava death! Jexik is hot lava death! Jexik is hot lava death! Jexik is hot lava death! Jexik is hot lava death! Jexik is hot lava death! Jexik is hot lava death! Jexik is hot lava death!
Re: Heroscape Power Rankings

I guess you have a point there.

In 2006, your army was 275 points of melee, and only 120 of ranged, and in 2008, it was 400 melee, 120 ranged.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fomox View Post
(I've also played many matches with great, fun people who were using Q9. So using Q9 doesn't make you a tool. But being a tool sure seems to make you use Q9.)
Reply With Quote
  #3178  
Old October 31st, 2009, 02:16 PM
Matthias Maccabeus's Avatar
Matthias Maccabeus Matthias Maccabeus is offline
Don't Need Range in the Knight-time
 
Join Date: April 10, 2007
Location: IA - Councilbama
Posts: 3,871
Matthias Maccabeus is hot lava death! Matthias Maccabeus is hot lava death! Matthias Maccabeus is hot lava death! Matthias Maccabeus is hot lava death! Matthias Maccabeus is hot lava death! Matthias Maccabeus is hot lava death! Matthias Maccabeus is hot lava death! Matthias Maccabeus is hot lava death! Matthias Maccabeus is hot lava death! Matthias Maccabeus is hot lava death! Matthias Maccabeus is hot lava death! Matthias Maccabeus is hot lava death! Matthias Maccabeus is hot lava death!
Re: Heroscape Power Rankings

You would think that after beating him 3 times in a row with almost all melee he would know that melee is by far superior to girly ranged units.

Dragon Dice - (the 2nd best game there is) Learn to Play!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1h3q6...wujcr8vVf8e21G
Reply With Quote
  #3179  
Old November 4th, 2009, 11:37 PM
Jexik's Avatar
Jexik Jexik is offline
Et tu, Jaxet?
 
Join Date: July 4, 2007
Location: IL - Elgin
Posts: 6,986
Images: 3
Blog Entries: 30
Jexik is hot lava death! Jexik is hot lava death! Jexik is hot lava death! Jexik is hot lava death! Jexik is hot lava death! Jexik is hot lava death! Jexik is hot lava death! Jexik is hot lava death! Jexik is hot lava death! Jexik is hot lava death! Jexik is hot lava death! Jexik is hot lava death! Jexik is hot lava death! Jexik is hot lava death!
Re: Heroscape Power Rankings

For anyone who's wondering, I'm not going to make any power rankings for the new Wave 10 guys until I get a chance to play them, and face them and/or read about some tournament results with them.

My gut feeling on both squads is that they're in that Wave 9 zone of "pretty good, but not broken." With the GG's maybe 1/3 of a grade higher than the Quasatch... but we'll see.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fomox View Post
(I've also played many matches with great, fun people who were using Q9. So using Q9 doesn't make you a tool. But being a tool sure seems to make you use Q9.)
Reply With Quote
  #3180  
Old November 4th, 2009, 11:40 PM
IAmBatman's Avatar
IAmBatman IAmBatman is offline
Has Bigger Cockles
 
Join Date: February 15, 2007
Location: USA - AL - Montgomery
Posts: 97,186
Images: 93
IAmBatman is a wielder of the Ban Hammer IAmBatman is a wielder of the Ban Hammer IAmBatman is a wielder of the Ban Hammer IAmBatman is a wielder of the Ban Hammer IAmBatman is a wielder of the Ban Hammer IAmBatman is a wielder of the Ban Hammer IAmBatman is a wielder of the Ban Hammer IAmBatman is a wielder of the Ban Hammer IAmBatman is a wielder of the Ban Hammer IAmBatman is a wielder of the Ban Hammer IAmBatman is a wielder of the Ban Hammer IAmBatman is a wielder of the Ban Hammer IAmBatman is a wielder of the Ban Hammer IAmBatman is a wielder of the Ban Hammer IAmBatman is a wielder of the Ban Hammer
Re: Heroscape Power Rankings

I think they both do cool things, and it'd be interesting to see Quasatch against Glad/Blasts or melee armies, but costing 100 points each for 3 figure squads with limited (at best) range is going to make it difficult to be consistent with them in competitive play.

C3G can be played with official Heroscape, but it's not recommended.


DISCLAIMER: C3G claims no ownership of the characters or artwork used for C3G customs. All rights for the characters belong to their respective publishers/creators. C3G cards are not intended for sale, and C3G does not authorize any party to profit from C3G cards.

Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   Heroscapers > Official Classic HeroScape > Competitive Armies Discussion
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:08 PM.

Heroscape background footer

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.