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  #2917  
Old October 22nd, 2009, 12:44 PM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings

Just got caught up. All good moves and non-moves, Jexik. Looking over the full list, I don't disagree on too much:

I'd move Braxas and Gladiatrons down. The former is just too fragile and fickle and the latter only shines when paired with Blasts. Spartacus' stock is certainly up but I think he's a bit high too since his cost is so exorbitant.

I like Isamu at A+, FWIW. For 10 points, he's automatic. I'd still take Marcu at 20, but the ninja's potential makes him gold.
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  #2918  
Old October 22nd, 2009, 01:28 PM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings

Well met!

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I will just go back to lurking the thread...
No you don't As the person who has played more competitive Scape than anyone in the world, your perspective has always added to my thoughts on the units and rankings. I'm sure Jexik appreciates the same.

FWIW, I don't see Gilbert as an A+ either, but I can see Isamu at either ranking. But then again, I do play Trons a lot, and both of those units tend to get owned by Trons
Yes, but I never offered you much either. I have an analytical side to me, a stats and numbers part of me, but I am very much a touch and feel person as well. Most opinions I have on any unit is based on my experiences and feelings associated with those experiences. Many times I don't know why, I just know it to be that way for me, if that makes sense. Anyhow, that wasn't a "taking my ball and going home" post because I don't think I was ever really playing this game.

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Originally Posted by Jexik View Post
Yep. I value your opinion a lot, Ry.
I appreciate it but I feel like I am never able to adequately quantify, justify, or specify what it is that makes me have the opinion. As I said, debating it isn't my thing and never has been. I just know what I know.

However, I will give it a shot:

Of course my view on Isamu is based on my experiences and I can't recall a single time where having Isamu in my army won me a tournament game. However, I have only played him 3 times in 38 events; I just donít like the concept of needing filler units and I try to avoid them in most of my builds.

Conversely, I can't recall as single tournament game where I was facing an army with Isamu in it and he came back for the improbable win. I have seen what he is capable of and have been on the giving and receiving end of it, I just haven't seen it much in my tournament games. My most recent tournament experience against Isamu came on Sunday where I first shot killed him to complete my win.

Isamu is great, amazing and altogether awesome, but I donít want him in my army if I can avoid it. On the other side, I have more respect for late game Marcu than I have for late game Isamu. 6 Lives with Flying 7 and Life Drain is more formidable than a single life unit that relies on the D20.
My experience with Marcu is singular: 2 betrayals in the first 2 turns of "glyph grabbing". I also dislike "filler", and avoid it if I can. In the tournament series I am currently playing, a finite pool and varying point totals required units like Isamu and Eldgrim to avoid loosing points.

On another note, referencing your attitude towards debate, putting together a competitive army that is also interesting to play (with some less than A+ units, the sum of the parts being greater than the whole), and then playing well, is more than a mechanical exercise; it is an art, and is ultimately subjective and beyond the bounds of mere stats.

David



Next Generation

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  #2919  
Old October 22nd, 2009, 03:12 PM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings

Well, there's that one time Isamu killed my two squads of monks!

I agree, anytime I activate Isamu, it usuallym eans I ahve already lost the game. So, he's great, but not an A+. neither is Gilbert. to me am A+ figure has to work in many situations and Gilbert is more limited in scope than the other A+ units.

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  #2920  
Old October 22nd, 2009, 03:15 PM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings

New controversy:
Migol should be a C.

He's a good glyph holder, but expensive at that role and hardly ever kills his points. Also, he makes his bonded squad actually worse.

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  #2921  
Old October 22nd, 2009, 04:10 PM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings

Since when can a filler unit not be A+? If they release a 10pt. figure that is has 10 attack and 10 defense with decent move (assuming it's abilities are not huge set backs), it's A+. I am not saying Isamu is that broken compared to the others and in general, I'm just pointing out that any figure type can be A+ in my opinion.

Isamu A+? Nice move Jexik.

But I still think Stingers are A+. To me, 4th > 10th, 4th ~ Stingers (meaning I think they're really close, but 4th leading; ~ = approx. equal), Stingers > 10th. And I'm one who absolutely thinks there are imaginary tiers within each grade, simply meaning if units are in the same grade it doesn't mean they are all equal. There is a general top to bottom. I wouldn't go as far to specifically rank them even further than their letter grade, but I think it is open to decide that a unit can be one of the better (i.e.) B+'s, or one of the lower B+'s. However, I still don't feel the 10th should be in the same letter grade as the Stingers, or Mass. The metagame (and begs ) boosted the 10th up to A (and other melee adjusted, etc. units up), and I'm fine with it, but to me it didn't change the A+ category enough to degrade a unit. Just my thoughts on that...and the other rankings look good.

Last edited by Cleon; October 22nd, 2009 at 04:20 PM.
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  #2922  
Old October 22nd, 2009, 04:41 PM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings

A 10 point figure that good is a figure you build around, though, not a filler.

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  #2923  
Old October 22nd, 2009, 05:14 PM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings

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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
But I still think Stingers are A+. To me, 4th > 10th, 4th ~ Stingers (meaning I think they're really close, but 4th leading; ~ = approx. equal), Stingers > 10th
............
However, I still don't feel the 10th should be in the same letter grade as the Stingers, or Mass.
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  #2924  
Old October 22nd, 2009, 05:17 PM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings

Can someone explain to me what makes the 4th so good? I always seem to get 4 attacks of 2, and they never kill anything with that. If your army is mostly composed of them, and I can't get them to kill much, I don't see why they are good. If I try to get height, then I only have around one squad there, making losses costly. What am I missing?

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  #2925  
Old October 22nd, 2009, 05:25 PM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings

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Can someone explain to me what makes the 4th so good? I always seem to get 4 attacks of 2, and they never kill anything with that. If your army is mostly composed of them, and I can't get them to kill much, I don't see why they are good. If I try to get height, then I only have around one squad there, making losses costly. What am I missing?
I guess it's just 4 attacks of 3, most likely. Plus, 3 defense is not bad. A 3-3 squad is similar to most 70 point squads, plus they have range. I think they only dominate when they are with Gilbert, otherwise I use the 10th.

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  #2926  
Old October 22nd, 2009, 05:26 PM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings

Bonecrusher, read up in these threads; they should shed some light for you.

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  #2927  
Old October 22nd, 2009, 05:27 PM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings

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Originally Posted by Bonecrusher View Post
Can someone explain to me what makes the 4th so good? I always seem to get 4 attacks of 2, and they never kill anything with that. If your army is mostly composed of them, and I can't get them to kill much, I don't see why they are good. If I try to get height, then I only have around one squad there, making losses costly. What am I missing?
4 attacks of 2 usually won't do too much, but you can often get some kind of bonus from them. WTF, glyphs, height, there's usually some way to boost their attack. And even if not, the sheer numbers of the 4th Mass will eventually make your opponent whiff. Playing them in an all-valiant army is close to necessary (unless you have suicide figures like AE, Zelrig, etc.) as well. Play with 4 or more squads of and you'll see their true power. At the same time, their biggest weakness (by far) is the lack of a solid multi-attacking valiant hero (think Kaemon, Q10, Q9). If the 4th had that, they'd be insane.
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  #2928  
Old October 22nd, 2009, 05:35 PM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings

I'd keep the Stingers at A+. To me, they are still the best answer to the question, "How do I deal with Q9?". They work well with a wide variety of armies and are easy to fit into an army at multiples of 60.

I don't know if Isamu is A or A+. I would argue that if Isamu is A+ because he is the best 10 point filler, Marcu should be A+ because he is the best 20 point filler.
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