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  #37  
Old May 24th, 2011, 10:46 PM
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Re: The Slow Win

The issue I have is not with games ending on time, rather that one can Stall their way to victory. Also consider a stinger/Q9 raelin rat army. Much of your offensive power goes into killing raelin and until she falls you are facing a full strength army that is requiring you to give up board control.

I prefer to have a set up where the winner needs to claim victory, not wait it out.

Also I do not enjoy playing, or playing against slow armies (not to be confused with fast armies that move slow, like zombies) and as the TD I decide how we play.


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  #38  
Old May 25th, 2011, 12:51 PM
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Re: The Slow Win

Quote:
Originally Posted by wriggz View Post
The issue I have is not with games ending on time, rather that one can Stall their way to victory.

[snip]

I prefer to have a set up where the winner needs to claim victory, not wait it out.
Do you actually have issues with people doing what you perceive as stalling for a victory? That is, do you find people winning on points deliberately take a long time to make decisions in order to ensure a win on time? If so, that's a serious problem that hasn't been noticed in other places. In my experience (and the experience of most others in this thread), the slow players are slow players no matter what they play, and the same is the case for the fast players.

If you really do have problems with deliberate stalling, then I suggest using chess clocks to time players out (give each player 40 minutes for a 1 hour round; if a players clock goes empty they forfeit automatically).

If you don't have that problem, though, and instead the issue is just some armies taking longer than others, then I still think kill point scoring solves the problem in a more elegant way. That makes the goal clearly the destruction of as much of your opponent's army as possible. Alternative win conditions like treasure quest can also encourage more aggressive play.

If the problem is just that games take too long in general, then lower points, reduced startzones, scenarios like Heat of Battle, or just smaller maps could do the trick.
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  #39  
Old May 25th, 2011, 07:48 PM
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Re: The Slow Win

Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
Do you actually have issues with people doing what you perceive as stalling for a victory?
I don't think anyone is stalling on purpose. Sure, there are some thinkers in Toronto, but no way we 'pretend' to think for the win. I actually play fairly fast, I am usually waiting for my opponent to set order markers and make moves. It's just my armies are hard to take out...

Last tournament I won I had:
Stingers X4
Rats X2
Raelin RotV
+ EoV/Brunak/Erevan (I chose EoV all games, but one)

Good luck taking all that out in 50 minutes.

The game I lost was against a 4th Mass + Nilf build and that game was well over 50 minutes.

I got into the tournament scene because of Sarpedon. I started meeting up with him for game days, then one day we played with Wriggz and they both asked me if I wanted to attend a tournament, they kind of put me on the spot, so I said yes. After that day, Sarpedon always stressed that you must bring the best possible army to a tournament or you will get creamed. The first tournament I attended, there were indeed a lot of Stingers and the tournament scene seemed very competitive and I realized the guy wasn't talking smack. After that, it was almost automatic for me to include Stingers in my army, it just felt right. (by the way, Sarpedon makes scenarios like you have never seen, seriously they are beyond epic. If he would of ever put any of them up, he would of been a great asset to the customs section)

Now, it seems like I am a minority with Stingers, a guy came second with an all Hero army last tournament . So, it's time to switch up the game. Plus, I am slightly getting bored of Stingers (even though I love how I matured as a Stinger player, rolling less and less for the Drain every tournament) I just think it will be more meaningful if I win with a unique army and not the standard old army I always play.

Every time I sat down to play I could just picture the person going like inside their head. I am a person who doesn't have as much fun playing a game if my opponent/team mate isn't having fun, I don't know, that's just me. I thought people would keep bringing "the best possible army", but after a while, that was not the case. So, there I am, sitting like a Jackass with an all A grade army and my opponent in the finals is playing an all Hero army with no Q9...

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  #40  
Old May 25th, 2011, 10:34 PM
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Re: The Slow Win

Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by wriggz View Post
The issue I have is not with games ending on time, rather that one can Stall their way to victory.

[snip]

I prefer to have a set up where the winner needs to claim victory, not wait it out.
Do you actually have issues with people doing what you perceive as stalling for a victory? That is, do you find people winning on points deliberately take a long time to make decisions in order to ensure a win on time? If so, that's a serious problem that hasn't been noticed in other places. In my experience (and the experience of most others in this thread), the slow players are slow players no matter what they play, and the same is the case for the fast players.

If you really do have problems with deliberate stalling, then I suggest using chess clocks to time players out (give each player 40 minutes for a 1 hour round; if a players clock goes empty they forfeit automatically).

If you don't have that problem, though, and instead the issue is just some armies taking longer than others, then I still think kill point scoring solves the problem in a more elegant way. That makes the goal clearly the destruction of as much of your opponent's army as possible. Alternative win conditions like treasure quest can also encourage more aggressive play.

If the problem is just that games take too long in general, then lower points, reduced startzones, scenarios like Heat of Battle, or just smaller maps could do the trick.
No it is nothing so monstrous.

Rather it is the spirit of the games, and the nature of the builds.

The key to beating a Dragon/greenscale army, elemental/kurrok, or other linchpin army is to kill the linchpin and clean up the rest. The issue with "slow armies" such as vydar range pods, or stinger/rat/raelin hordes is that the energy put into killing the linchpin takes up so much of the effort of the other player that by the time they have eliminated that figure there is little time to clean up the remaining figures.

On a second note, I wan the spirit of my games to require the winning player to pursue victory. I want the play in the winning position to push themselves towards total victory, rather than waiting for the win.

Valhalla is not like real life where you want to survive with the greatest number of forces, no this is about total domination.


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  #41  
Old May 26th, 2011, 01:06 AM
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Re: The Slow Win

Quote:
Originally Posted by airdroppers View Post
Last tournament I won I had:
Stingers X4
Rats X2
Raelin RotV
+ EoV/Brunak/Erevan (I chose EoV all games, but one)

Good luck taking all that out in 50 minutes.
It really is doable if both players play at a decent pace.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wriggz View Post
No it is nothing so monstrous.

Rather it is the spirit of the games, and the nature of the builds.
In that case, clocks probably aren't needed, but I continue to maintain that the 2 point/1 point thing is not a good solution. I honestly think this penalizes people who play against slow players much more than it penalizes slow builds.

Next tournament, pick some of the more compact maps out there, and if that's not enough, make it a treasure quest event, and maybe even reduce the maximum number of startzone spaces used.

If you do want to adjust the scoring itself, count points destroyed in wins in stead of just counting wins. That still penalizes those who play against slow players, but it does encourage aggressive play (better to win 50-40 on time than win 400-100 on time).
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  #42  
Old May 26th, 2011, 01:34 AM
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Re: The Slow Win

Quote:
Originally Posted by dok
I honestly think this penalizes people who play against slow players much more than it penalizes slow builds.
Hum... I see what you mean. Further thought is required before I comment further.


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  #43  
Old May 26th, 2011, 10:02 PM
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Re: The Slow Win

Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by airdroppers View Post
Last tournament I won I had:
Stingers X4
Rats X2
Raelin RotV
+ EoV/Brunak/Erevan (I chose EoV all games, but one)

Good luck taking all that out in 50 minutes.
It really is doable if both players play at a decent pace.
Of course it's doable...

Anyway, I think we need to go the banning route. It's been done before and it's not the best way to go about it, but it might just work here in Toronto.

Lowering starting zones is not a bad idea, but that doesn't make anyone not want to play Raelin and double spaced units get even worse.

I read an event where you get more points if you play Huge character's... Not a bad idea. Even though I am sure we will see more Dragons then ever.

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  #44  
Old May 26th, 2011, 11:45 PM
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Re: The Slow Win

Quote:
Originally Posted by airdroppers View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by airdroppers View Post
Last tournament I won I had:
Stingers X4
Rats X2
Raelin RotV
+ EoV/Brunak/Erevan (I chose EoV all games, but one)

Good luck taking all that out in 50 minutes.
It really is doable if both players play at a decent pace.
Of course it's doable...
Doable, and done. Armies of that type have been completely destroyed in 50 minutes or less many times at tournaments. It really does happen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by airdroppers View Post
Anyway, I think we need to go the banning route. It's been done before and it's not the best way to go about it, but it might just work here in Toronto.
What maps do you folks use in Toronto? I looked through your event listings, and the maps are never specified.

Even if the maps are wide open, though, the idea that stingers would need to get banned is just bizarre to me. Counters to stingers abound, starting with the Krav and the 4th Mass.

Quote:
Originally Posted by airdroppers View Post
Lowering starting zones is not a bad idea, but that doesn't make anyone not want to play Raelin and double spaced units get even worse.
The double spaced squads are never all that great in the first place, while powerful/expensive double-spaced heroes are still not a significant drain on startzone spaces. The real losers with reduced startzone sizes are hordes of cheap commons... like rats and stingers.
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  #45  
Old June 4th, 2011, 05:09 PM
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Re: The Slow Win

Interesting thread.

Games going to time is a bummer, but in my mind it really shouldn't happen that often. I find that the single largest factor in this is map selection. And I don't think it's so much size of the map that influences this, I think it's barriers on the map. If both armies are able to execute multiple attacks on most turns, the chances of a game going to time are sometimes nil. For this reason, my favorite tourney maps are often ones that are quite simple. Of course there are other factors that go into timed games as well, but I think if the tournament director does a good job selecting maps for the tourney, this goes a long way to getting games done in time and having the tourney run smoothly.
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  #46  
Old June 5th, 2011, 04:17 PM
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Re: The Slow Win

Last tournament, almost every single map included some sort of Custom Terrain. I remember playing on a map with a "desert expansion" with quick sand and poisonous plants, the map was great but definitely threw a curve ball. Another map featured these big Crystal looking things that did a -1 or -2 to Special attackers, attacking adjacent from it. Non of the maps were like your usual tournament maps.

Wriggz never posts the maps, so we never really know what to expect going in. I even remember a couple of tournaments ago, Wriggz asked someone to build a map on the spot, it was snow heavy and not symmetrical at all.

We play on BoV maps too though...

Maybe we need to do the whole "slugfest" thing. Melee units have high damage, which might speed up the game. Even though, Knights would be pretty damn good.

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  #47  
Old June 5th, 2011, 04:53 PM
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Re: The Slow Win

airdroppers, I find that most custom maps tend to be much less melee friendly, and often encourage a much less aggressive (read: slower) style of play than the most popular tournament maps.

Next tournament, try playing with Trailblazer, or Fire Isles, or Highways and Dieways, or Embattled Fen. I bet you'll find that games go faster (and melee will probably fare better, too).

...or keep playing unusual custom maps, and try to adjust for them in different ways. That's totally fine, too; I don't mean to diminish that at all. But it seems likely to me that this is a big part of what is making your games go to time more often.
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  #48  
Old June 6th, 2011, 08:18 PM
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Re: The Slow Win

Quote:
Originally Posted by airdroppers View Post
I read an event where you get more points if you play Huge character's... Not a bad idea. Even though I am sure we will see more Dragons then ever.
I was more concerned about hordes of Hydras at Big is Beautiful than an overabundance of dragons (more dragons is actually something I'd love to see ).

After several considerations about how to limit that concern I took the time to actually test the power of Hydrasx4+Raelin/Kelda instead of just theoryscape fretting about it, and found that in reality OM efficiency (or more accurately, inefficiency) keeps it in line.

Either way, I'll be sharing the full results and my observations after the tourney, so more educated refinement can take place then if needed.

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