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  #361  
Old February 15th, 2022, 02:02 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] Velnesh Alphas (Leyline Phantoms) - Playtesting

I'd like to raise an issue with how Blink is referencing Shift.

Quote:
SHIFT
After moving normally, you may immediately place a Velnesh Alpha on any empty space within 2 spaces of its current placement. Velnesh Alphas will not take leaving engagement attacks while Shifting.

BLINK
After a Velnesh Alpha rolls defense dice against a normal attack from an opponent's figure and is not destroyed, it may move using its Shift special power.
First, Scytale pointed out last month (oops, last year) the importance of Blink not being immediate because of timing conflicts such as with Knockback. However, Blink inherently relies upon Shift to define this placement, and Shift is immediate, so that feels ambiguous.

Second, Shift is defined as happening after moving normally (and before attacking), but Blink cannot occur in a context that meets this requirement. So technically it's not even possible for Blink to "use Shift" (unless there's some rule I don't know about that defines exactly what does and does not gets overridden when one special power invokes another).

Third, Shift is not really a move but a place, so it feels off to say "move using Shift." It really isn't moving using Shift, it's placing in the same manner as Shift — which of course is not quite the same thing.

Can anyone think of a reason why this card couldn't just follow the normal Scape standard of being super-repetitive and verbose so 10-year-olds can understand? Something like this, perhaps:
SHIFT
After moving normally, you may immediately place a Velnesh Alpha on any empty space within 2 spaces of its current placement. Velnesh Alphas will not take leaving engagement attacks while Shifting.

BLINK
After a Velnesh Alpha rolls defense dice against a normal attack from an opponent's figure and is not destroyed, you may place it on any empty space within 2 spaces of its current placement. It will not take leaving engagement attacks while Blinking.
I know it's longer, but there's plenty of room; and this seems to avoid the issues with timing, requirements, etc. that come from having one power kick off another one but try to ignore or modify parts of that other power "on the fly." It also makes an explicit difference between Shift being immediate and Blink being non-immediate.

This also has advantages in future-proofing the templates and giving future developers more design flexibility. In this form, BLINK is re-usable on new army cards without being forced to either re-write it or also include SHIFT on the same card. And a designer can even use variants like SHIFT 3 and BLINK 3 to change how far one power or the other can teleport.

TL/DR: This feels more clear, stable, and flexible.


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  #362  
Old February 27th, 2022, 02:46 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] Velnesh Alphas (Leyline Phantoms) - Playtesting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Just_a_Bill View Post
the normal Scape standard of being super-repetitive and verbose


Quote:
Originally Posted by Just_a_Bill View Post
SHIFT
After moving normally, you may immediately place a Velnesh Alpha on any empty space within 2 spaces of its current placement. Velnesh Alphas will not take leaving engagement attacks while Shifting.

BLINK
After a Velnesh Alpha rolls defense dice against a normal attack from an opponent's figure and is not destroyed, you may place it on any empty space within 2 spaces of its current placement. It will not take leaving engagement attacks while Blinking.
I don't really have any problems with this, other than preferring elegant solutions to 'scape's tendency toward word vomit. Scape also more or less treats placement and movement as the same thing, but there's certainly room on the card and this of course doesn't actually change any of its (intended) functionality.


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  #363  
Old March 1st, 2022, 11:46 AM
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Re: [Pod 0] Velnesh Alphas (Leyline Phantoms) - Playtesting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Just_a_Bill View Post
Third, Shift is not really a move but a place, so it feels off to say "move using Shift." It really isn't moving using Shift, it's placing in the same manner as Shift — which of course is not quite the same thing.
In Heroscape, moving and placing are, by the FAQ, the same thing. Some powers like Spear of Summoning which use the term "move" when it's really a "place."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Just_a_Bill View Post
Can anyone think of a reason why this card couldn't just follow the normal Scape standard of being super-repetitive and verbose so 10-year-olds can understand?
It's because this is targeted at new players (and not a VC release) that I preferred the current version. It's actually more confusing to people to have two powers saying much the same thing. Saying "use that other power" is easy to process to understand, and has precedence with Spidey-Sense.
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  #364  
Old March 1st, 2022, 10:16 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] Velnesh Alphas (Leyline Phantoms) - Playtesting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scytale View Post
Saying "use that other power" is easy to process to understand, and has precedence with Spidey-Sense.
This was tickling the back of my brain but you beat me to coming back and posting it.


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  #365  
Old March 4th, 2022, 09:26 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] Velnesh Alphas (Leyline Phantoms) - Playtesting

Would it help if Blink was "After a Velnesh Alpha rolls defense dice against a normal attack from an opponent's figure and is not destroyed, you may place it it may move using its Shift special power."?


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  #366  
Old March 20th, 2022, 09:50 AM
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Re: [Pod 0] Velnesh Alphas (Leyline Phantoms) - Playtesting

Playtest here.

Quote:
not much on the Velnesh, since they went down quick, but still find their theme and powers fun.


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  #367  
Old October 8th, 2022, 08:22 AM
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Re: [Pod 0] Velnesh Alphas (Leyline Phantoms) - Playtesting

Notes from a quick playtest after last month's local event: pretty much the same as ever. They didn't end up doing much if any damage this time, but their powers are still fun. There was the question if 3 Move + 3 Blink would be better (I believe we've been over that and decided against) and some concern they didn't really fit a particular role in armies. We're not necessarily aiming to design units people want to reach for every time, but their solid stats (4/4 with effectively 6+ Move) and ability to move through obstacles does give them a unique space to play in, IMO.


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  #368  
Old October 8th, 2022, 09:42 AM
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Re: [Pod 0] Velnesh Alphas (Leyline Phantoms) - Playtesting

I'm sure we could playtest more but I'm not sure if we'll get anything more than what NB said there.


I think they might be overpriced. Compare them to Tarn Viking Warriors or Brute Gruts.

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  #369  
Old October 8th, 2022, 12:05 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] Velnesh Alphas (Leyline Phantoms) - Playtesting

I'd rather err overpriced than underpriced, but if we can review how much work they did in playtests I could see a slight drop (plus it wouldn't hurt to not have so many 90-point cards).


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  #370  
Old October 8th, 2022, 01:12 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] Velnesh Alphas (Leyline Phantoms) - Playtesting

I went back through and read all the playtest. Taken all together I don't think they are worth 90 points. I would argue for the 60-70 range.

I did at one point suggest 3 attack and 5 defense, which would both help with their durability and also make for more variety of defense values in the master set.

Someone else suggested swapping point values between them and the Ukushisa Pride, though I'm not sure what that squads point value was at the time, from context I know it was less than 90.

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  #371  
Old October 8th, 2022, 01:31 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] Velnesh Alphas (Leyline Phantoms) - Playtesting

They compare pretty favorably to the Ninjas of the Northern Wind even without synergy for 20 points less, IMO, though perhaps that's something I need to let go of.

From the games that I've played with them, I think that 60-70 is too low, and I'd like to see a few more tests if we want to try and hit 80. I'd be comfortable with pushing them forward as-is at 90 at this point.
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Old October 8th, 2022, 01:38 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] Velnesh Alphas (Leyline Phantoms) - Playtesting

Ninjas of the northern wind are way overpriced. A Birdy told me they are set to go to 70 in the next Delta release. I would not use them as a comparison point.

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