Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

[Dad_Scaper]

"Drow Ambush" improves the unit in two ways. First, it addresses the concern that "Drow Assassinate" is just not a good name. No matter the mechanics, the name feels pasted on and clumsy. What is a "Drow Assassinate"? Is it like a "Drow Assassination," or is that something different? That would be confusing in its own way, so that's not a good substitute. Both as a figure of speech and as a meaningful descriptor, "Drow Assassinate" fails. But a "Drow Ambush"? It is clear on its face: an ambush by Drow, in their style.

Second, and perhaps more importantly, this change sweeps away my concern that the power did not seem to do what the name said it did. Now, it's an "Ambush." That can mean attacking a high value target, as originally contemplated, but it could *also* mean slipping into an advantageous position or slitting the throat of some squaddie who happens to be in the way of the troops that will follow.

This change makes the unit much stronger, with this one word in the name of a power, that it takes a unit that I thought was "meh" and makes it into something I can believe in.

Sweat the small stuff, designers. And good job, @Leaf_It .

[vegietarian18]

to review. Intrigued to give this one a spin.

[Scytale]

The Drow Assassin has received 5 Yea votes to review (Dysole, Scytale, superfrog, Vydar_XLIII, and vegietarian18) and moves forward in the process.

[wriggz]

Abe no Seimei, Kincho, and Ibaraki-doji by Astroking112

With Frost Giants, Hydra and Dragons, Heroscape is rife with creatures with origins in western mythology. Up until now eastern traditions have been somewhat overlooked, with the Yokai looking to add a new faction to Valhalla.

Balance
Due to the clear design intent, playing any of the Yokai on their own would almost be like playing other symbiotic units independently (like Elementals or Elf Wizards), so my testing focused on them as a group rather than individually. Nonetheless, staring by looking at the Yokai independently, Kincho as a 60-point defender/filler is outshined by so many other options such as Arthur of Sherwood or Yi Feng, who both have movement powers and pack a stronger punch, or draft another squad of commons or a couple of Wyrmlings. Ibaraki-Dojo is easily outclassed in the narrow 120-point standalone Utgar hero category, but Krug and Fen Hydra aside, having a flying double special attack has a value all its own, and may be justify the negative of eating up early order markers. As the crux of the Yokia faction, Abe No Seimei’s price driven on how he removes the limitations on the other Yokai and allows for novel movement options. Both these are hard to price, but cheerleader often carry the costs, Raelin notwithstanding. It is up to playability to determine if the group is worth the point investment.

Theme
Even during the nomination, I had to confront my own bias against non-western fantasy since I was less familiar with Japanese lore than western mythology. I was already familiar with Kappa, Tengu and other Oni but was not as comfortable reviewing Yokai as faction. After researching the units as well as Yokai in general I reached out to academics to see how a faction rather than using the terms Oni, Tanuki or future Tengu unit. Grouping Hydra, Griffins and Cyclops as Greek Myths, or Banshee, leprechauns, and pixies as Feyfolk does not seem in keeping with classic style. Classifying Abe No Seimei as a Yokia also seems similar to classifying Merlin as a Feyfolk, which seems wrong. Undead are a good counter example including Vampires, Zombies and Skeletons, but those groups often overlap throughout cultural references. Of course, this is all applying Earth traditions to a Feylund species, but Heroscape has always been beholden to the myths it is based on.

Looking at Yokai in other modern culture, the video game series Noih groups all the supernatural foes under one classification. However, the unified art direction makes the creatures have a clear style and is not counter pointed against mythical creatures form other traditions. The juxtaposition of Abe No Seimei, Kincho, Ibaraki-Dojo and Masha Shingai when the figure are on the board reinforces the impression that these are distinct creatures. While you may have Romans following a Marro and Dwarf in your army, the tight synergy of the faction should also be reflected in the figures if they share a common species.

Creativity
Each card in the Yokai faction appears well put together, and clearly much thought was put into the interaction between each hero. While Insatiable Greed and Tanuki Trickery are a little gimmicky on their own, Night of the Yokai ties these powers and this faction together in a way other than bonding or cheerleading aura. Shapeshifting further unifies the faction, though in play it feels more like a teleport power rather than a true shapeshift. Choosing to assign each Yokai to a different general calls back to Monks and Ninja, however I feel this highlights diverse sculpt design, which is in contradiction of such a tightknit faction. This feels like a different design space than the themes of Kurrok and Talingul dominating mindless elementals and constructs.

Playability
As mentioned, it is possible to play the Yokai independently but to preform optimally they need to be considered as a group. Abe No Seimei is obviously the hub of the Yokai wheel, allowing for creative movement plays using Shapeshift and improving the other Yokai. However, three attack at 6 range from an average move figure amounts to little more than pot shots even in clean up, and it is difficult to say he was worth his points in cheerleading alone. Ibaraki-Dojo did benefit from early rounds where he moved up the board using Shapeshift after Abe No Seimei’s used his superior move (on flat maps) to move up and take early range shots. Not worrying about Insatiable Greed was defintally a boon, but again you pay a lot for it. Overall Ibaraki-Dojo was a strong contender with his normal attack for heroes, and strong multi-attack for Squads, but not exceptional compared to other 120-point units. I found Kincho interesting to position, but not very impactful on the board. It was possible to tie up a few incoming Melee figures, but with low attack potential, he was easily ignored. A few times an ignored or surviving Kincho allowed Ibaraki-Dojo to move up and make a few attacks on a key figure, but as the opposing army wants to attack Ibaraki-Dojo as much as possible having him move into the center of the action wasn’t as bad as it could be with other assassin figures. The Yokai board movement was unique, but their lack of numbers couldn’t be made up by Ibaraki-Dojo threat in a way that Krug, Q10 or Kaemon Awa can.

While any nonbonding Heroscape armies requires careful order marker management, the Yokai take this to the next level. I often found myself fretting over the order markers as much as I would the positioning of melee squad, to ensure I was getting the most out of the army. Sending out the Yokai one by one waisted their potential and can easily gave up board control and glyphs. Placing order markers, ensuring I was using Divination, placing the revealed Order Marker on a different Yokai, and activating after round powers, added an additional mental load that reminded more of a C3G faction rather than a classic design. While many may welcome this level of complexity, part of my playtest group includes friends not as passionate about Heroscape as myself and recently my eldest son, who found this added complexity unnecessary on an already challenging army to maximize.

While complexity alone is not necessarily a bad thing, there was little pay off for careful planning. Abe No Seimei carried a high cost, paying for the movement and overcoming the negative on Ibaraki-Dojo card, while making Kincho more viable. This high cost made building a viable army difficult. With so little attack output the Yokai can be easily cut down by weak armies despite their reasonability survivability due to the deeper life pools on the flying Ibaraki-Dojo and range attack Abe No Seimei. When a complex army is firing on all cylinders, it can be an adrenaline rush. Mohicans, Arrow Gruts, Elfish wizards, and the Wildwoods can be punishing in the hands of a skilled player but fall flat when used by a novice. Other than the odd surprise positioning mauver (all the harder to pull off with Divination in play) the Yokai simply did not have the teeth to make the impact warned by their points cost.

Summary
The Yokai Faction is very cleverly designed and presented interesting play options. However, I believe it would be a misstep to classify all Japanese mythological creatures as Yokai, rather than their more common names. Additionally, the Yokai faction is so tightknit that having their miniatures look so distinct and having them assigned to different generals did not unify their theme. The Yokai demanded higher player focus as Order Markers took on additional importance, placing more demands on players than typical Heroscape units. Finally, the Yokai under preformed for their points, and while this could be mitigated by future units, I believe that would further support my argument against grouping all Yokai together and their aesthetic variation.

I vote :no: to induct the Yokai (Abe no Seimei, Kincho, and Ibaraki-doji ) into the Soldiers of Valhalla.

[Scytale]

The Drow Assassin has passed United Fanscape Review and moves forward in the process.

[Scytale]

Lee Jun by @Leaf_It

Building upon the Monk warriors of the C3V, Lee Jun leaps into the fight.

Balance

It's difficult to find a suitable unit for comparison for Lee due to his unique set of powers. Fellow monk Yi Feng seems similar on the surface with Iron Shirt taking the place of Bending Reed Stance. Melee Combat Expert messes up this comparison, though, making the two quite different. On the surface, a melee hero with 3/3 stats and only 4 Life doesn't seem like much, but his three powers complement each other very well and make Lee Jun potentially worth far more than 60 points in optimal conditions. Theory only goes so far here.

Theme

A deftly-swaying barefisted fighter is an excellent fit for a monk design, one that hasn't been tapped yet. In terms of stats and other abilities he fits in nicely with other Heroscape Monks. The miniature also fits very well with existing Heroscape Monks.

Creativity

I appreciate the reigned-in stats and sticking to a lot of standard design points for a Monk Hero. There's often little reason not to use up all of Lee's Bending Reed bonus attacks every time he takes a turn, so in both concept and practice it feel extraneous to use special markers for Bending Reed Stance, but there really isn't another way to do it as it requires memory between turns and sometimes even rounds. The three powers all interact very well, complimenting and improving each other.

Playability

It's pretty obvious from the design that Lee Jun is swingy. Just as you'd expect, he's crap when facing ranged armies and awesome when facing at least some types of melee ones. His movement can be good enough to make him a threat to ranged forces, but for the most part his 4 Life and 3 Defense don't hold up for long even if he does get into the fray. Likewise, against solo melee heroes he's nothing special.

Against swarming melee armies, he's a beast. Swarm armies rely on lots of weaker attacks to overwhelm their foes. Against Lee that just doesn't work; not only does his defense increase with each engaged enemy, but lots of low-strength attacks also build up his Stance markers, allowing him to strike back viciously. While it is possible to play around his advantages, doing so is difficult and incredibly disruptive. That's because Stealth Leap gives him fantastic ability to find his way into any crowds that happen to be at all nearby, regardless of existing engagements. Doing so (usually) locks down all of those other units, and he often kills some while he's at it.

Heroscape has always had units that were miserable to fight against in melee (Raelin + Izumi in the original Master Set come to mind). That doesn't make them fun to play against though. Fighting Lee Jun with a swarm army is an unpleasant experience, whether you're playing against him correctly or not. An unbounded bonus from Melee Combat Expert, which empowers Bending Reed Stance and can be maximzied with Stealth Leap, means that swarmers lack a way to counter him.

While Lee Jun troublesome alone, when part of a Monk army led by Master Lao Xin he becomes a terror. The Master frees up Lee's order marker dependence, allowing him to active at the best possible times and adding another activation along with his. So not only are his turns better since he takes turns when it's the most valuable to do so, those turns are in addition to something else.

Summary

Lee Jun is naturally polarizing. Too polarizing for his own good. Like Hatamoto Taro, he is powerful in some situations and terrible in others. Unlike Taro, Lee is not priced for his best situation, but more of an "average" price. Which means that against melee swarms, he is worth much more than 60 points. He's only really good at one thing, but it's a fairly common thing, and he's overly good at it.

I vote Nay to induct Lee Jun into the SoV.

[Leaf_It]

This is understandable. I expected the downvote after seeing the concerns during the initial submission, but I didn't want to pull out after passing the internal review.

I feel I've been too hasty in the past with pulling out designs after a single downvote, but looking at the time line, a second vote looks like it won't come for around ... at least 6 months, and it wouldn't be surprising if it was a year or longer. I've been working on a revised version with a less oppressive defensive power for several months. I don't think it's ready for submission right now, but after talking it over with a couple people, I think it's best to withdraw Lee Jun now. Expect the revision in a few weeks to a month.

I'm sorry if this seems hasty, but I think it's better than leaving him in, and wasting any of the of the judge's time testing a unit that isn't going to stay in.

[Scytale]

Lee Jun has been withdrawn by the submitter and is removed from the process.

[BiggaBullfrog]

Clayton Pierce by Discord Group

Cowboy synergy boo

Wait, I need to actually play and review this guy? Okay, here goes...

Balance

I feel like commander figures are surprisingly nuanced when it comes to balance. There's an interplay of the figures they're able to move/attack with, any space/LoS limitations, and the stats that the commander has themself.

Clayton strikes a balance of having particularly strong bonding powers, but only being able to use them once per round. His own stats aren't terrible, but not particularly strong either, and the fact that he has to be up with the action to use Shootout adds some risk to the potential reward. At 90 points he's on the cheaper side of commander figures, but with the Lawmen available to him and the once-per-round limits he's not as able to protect himself with commanded figures in the same way other commanders can.

Theme

While I feel like I'm generally one of the harsher critics of units that slap around synergy, I'm not 100% against it when done well. (And there is some synergy I'd like to see that tends to surprise other people.) With that, I'll admit to the fact that I've been a big fan of the cowboy posse synergy since I first saw it being thrown around (despite my intro remarks). It's gone through a lot of iterations for this specific design, but I think it ended up in a good spot. The cowboys move and fight together, giving you a fun western feel as you prepare the lawmen for an epic shootout on the battlefield.

Creativity

The main draw that Clayton has for creativity IMO is his handling of his commander status. The commander trope is pretty hashed out at this point in 'Scape, but Clayton manages to give it something fresh with his once-per-round focus, meaning he's not just another order marker hub. Instead he functions as a pivot point for the round, and a figure to be planned for, not just spammed, which is a big big plus in my book.

Playability

As I've mentioned, the once-per-round limitations for Clayton make for a different kind of commander figure than we usually see, which adds to his playability. You're not spamming lawmen with him, you generally need to plan and prepare an army that can cover his weaknesses. That usually means something that can cover the board and be able to play defense on the turns that you're not hammering the opponent with shootouts.

As to be expected, Raelin and Rats are pretty good at this.

But what's really fun is that they are not the only figures good at this, and (from my experience) not even the best (though they are far from the worst). There are a lot of options when using this army, which I really enjoyed. Even Vikings love them!

So we should talk about the Vikings really quick. Dreadguls, being able to bond with Guilty, are pretty pretty great with this build. Vegie covered this synergy really well in his review here and I don't really feel like re-writing the wheel, so there's that if you want the meat of it. Basically it allows for a strong aggressive rush in the first turns of the game that goes toe-to-toe with a lot of high tier armies. Being able to bum rush Guilty, attack with bonding while moving Dreadguls, and always have a free move with him between rounds in case you want to overextend on the last turn and then retreat to safety is some real power.

When I first started playing this army, I was really worried that I'd be downvoting soon. However, the more I played it and worked with the counter strategies available, I found it was far from unbeatable, and actually a lot of fun. A lot of armies in the cheese realms are super focused on defensive power, and I found it refreshing to play the Clayton/Dreadgul/Guilty army (which really needs a cool nickname) into those armies with its focus on offensive plays. What's more, the C/D/G army plays strongly into one-note high tier armies but struggles against the more versatile armies that are becoming more popular in VCheese land, so I don't see it becoming the new build to beat. If anything, I think it encourages some new, creative builds in a fun way that I don't think SoV submissions usually are able to do.

Summary

Clayton is a cool, thematic figure that makes a linchpin for a lawman-focused army. His powers are restricted enough, yet versatile enough, that he allows for a lot of cool army building along with play and counter play in a game.

I vote Yea to induct Clayton Pierce into the Soldiers of Valhalla.

[quozl]

Just curious, has anyone tested Kate with Clayton?

[Scytale]

Originally Posted by quozl

Just curious, has anyone tested Kate with Clayton?

I played both together a bit. Her low cost is both her best and worst asset. She's cheap enough to mix in, but her offensive power is lower than the others so she's usually of the last choice for a Shootout and therefore Posse movements as well. Unless you want to sacrifice her as a defender, which is ok for the price.

[superfrog]

Masha Shingai by Astroking112

Here was my previous review of Masha Shingai:

Spoiler Alert!

Originally Posted by superfrog

Masha Shingai by @Astroking112

Samurai have long been a staple of Heroscape, and Demons have long been a staple of Samurai lore. Will Masha be the one to staple these staples together?

Balance

Masha’s big draw is his attack reduction, and playing with attack reduction is playing with fire. What makes Masha’s power so different from existing attack reduction powers is that it applies to all figures within a 4-space radius. Akumaken and the Skull Demon, the two figures that already play in this space, and both have a narrow range of effect: Akumaken only works on adjacent figures, and the Skull Demon only on figures directly attacking it. Still, for a single-attacking figure that needs activations to trigger the aura, 110 points is a relatively hefty cost.

As far as price point, Masha’s stats looks quite similar to our last inductee Uzog, and he has some support capabilities just as Uzog does.

Theme

I think this design is wonderfully thematic. Einar is the right call for general, in my opinion, and the powers and stats complement the mini nicely.

Creativity

Awakened Terror is quite a creative way to boost the Samurai by helping to trigger their Counter Strike, and Fiery Retribution is also a creative way to help the Samurai against their archnemesis, figures with range. I also very much appreciate the limits put on Awakened Terror. It’s simple, thematic, and restrained.

Playability

What do you know, I played Masha with Samurai quite a lot while testing him. I tried mixing and matching the unique squads, using Kaemon Awa, and tossing in Tomoe Gozen for good measure. Most of the time I added Raelin as well, since she helps the Samurai have some extra fearsome defenses.

I had three categories I was curious to see Masha armies against: Low attack long range armies (i.e. Aubriens, M-43s), short range armies (i.e. Teeth of the Makwa, Stingers), and melee armies (i.e. Blade Gruts, Greenscales).

Against long range armies, I was worried that Masha would overwhelm by pushing forward and forcing opponents to either abandon high ground or be stuck with low attacks once Masha got within range. In practice, this didn’t really happen. Even attacks of 2 and 3 can get through Masha’s defense if you have enough of them, and the strategy I was concerned about doesn’t make staying in Raelin’s aura very feasible. It’s hard to set up for Fiery Retribution, too, because that often puts those ranged figures out of your Samurai’s threat range.

Against short ranged armies, Masha is scary because his powers can both come into effect. It’s a screwed if you do, screwed if you don’t situation: You’re forced into Masha’s aura, where your attack is lowered, and then whenever you do break through you have a pretty good shot of dying. Great, huh? This really didn’t happen as much as I thought either. Engaging Masha enables you to attack him without risking any counter damage, and it’s worth taking the risk of a few Fiery Retributions here or there to take out a squad figure or put an extra wound on Masha. The Samurai squads can’t block you from engaging Masha either, because that sets them up to be attacked from outside the aura. These short range figures have high attack for the most part, and it’s not the end of the world to lose 1 die when attacking Masha’s (or Raelin’s) 3 defense.

Against melee armies, my concern was that Masha would force figures to make low percentage attacks against Samurai and just die in droves. Again, this didn’t really come up as I was worried it would. One of the things that new players often will forget in Heroscape is that they don’t need to take every opportunity possible. This is very true when playing against a Masha army. If you throw endless mindless attacks against 5-7 defense Samurai with 3 attack, you deserve to lose. Instead, a melee opponent to Masha should focus on Masha first, even forgoing attacks to develop more figures. If you do that, Masha falls quickly enough.

All three scenarios had one common thread that I thought I’d mention seperately: losing initiative is killer for a Masha army. When that happens, all the Samurai are sitting there, often in non-ideal positions, waiting to get shot down. Same thing when Masha dies: it often leaves the Samurai player in a lurch.

Summary

There were several scenarios I was worried about in my Masha testing, but none of those scenarios really turned out to be very problematic. Instead, I had the opposite problem. It never felt like Masha could be the whole package. For all the intimidating powers on his card, he came across a little too flat, and never seemed to make the Samurai engine go like it was supposed to.

I vote to induct Masha Shingai into the Soldiers of Valhalla

The new version plays differently in three ways:

1. Different exception to the Terror power, which mostly just allows him to work with Tagawa Samurai Archers.
2. 2-space aura on Retribution, which mostly just allows slightly more positional flexibility.
3. 6 move instead of 5, which mostly just allows slightly more positional flexibility (again).

The previous version I nearly upvoted but ended up thinking was slightly too weak. This version is bumped up a tick in power-level by the three changes mentioned above, and it makes the unique squad combo just a bit more free-flowing, which I felt was lacking as well.

I also want to address the "punishment" style of gameplay that Bigga mentioned in his review. I really struggled with how to think of his argument because I very much agree with the premise that it's no fun to play against figures that are no fun to play against.

I think Masha Shingai sidesteps the issue by being too greedy for OMs for it to matter most of the time. Yes, he only needs one OM to set off the attack reduction power. But if you're looking to play an annoying Rats/Raelin/Range army, you're better off spending your 110 points elsewhere.

In general, I find that the most frustrating Masha combos are better off without Masha, and that Masha is much less frustrating to play in the more intended context of a big Samurai party. In neither application is a Masha Shingai army overpowered, but I'm glad he isn't priced at 90 or something to make the Rats issue more of a sticking point.

I vote to induct Masha Shingai into the Soldiers of Valhalla.