The Book of Cyprien Esenwein

[IAmBatman]

Morsbane and any units with insta-kill powers or mindshackling powers are potential counters to just about anything (except the lower priced stuff, of course).

[Grungebob]

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

He doesn't need to catch him. Cyprien is a 1 range unit. All Major X17 needs to do is stick by a high ranged shooter and wait until Cyprien comes to take the shooter out. When you're dealing with a melee fig, you force it to come to you, or you make it pay for staying at range - simple as that.

Not so fast Batman. You have to be able to threaten Cyprian with the potential of being clawed by X17. This requires always having an unrevealed order marker on him. Now the X bluff order marker is handy but there are still limitations to the usefulness of your suggested tactic.

[IAmBatman]

Originally Posted by Grungebob

Not so fast Batman. You have to be able to threaten Cyprian with the potential of being clawed by X17. This requires always having an unrevealed order marker on him. Now the X bluff order marker is handy but there are still limitations to the usefulness of your suggested tactic.

Not necessarily, you just need a ranged figure tough enough to survive a couple of assaults by Cyprien and strong enough to be a threat that would get Cyprien's attention. Either Cy hits and runs, severely limiting his ability to take the ranged figure out (whereas the ranged figure would still be able to attack Cy with each activation) or risk ending the round engaged and giving X17 a chance to jump him the following round.
The major point I'm making here is that Cyprien is a melee figure, and thus vulnerable to range. Camping X17 out by your ranged figs just adds to that vulnerability.
Zettians might work well in this build, as well as Q9, glads/blasts, and the Warden to boost some of the others.

[Fourshadow]

Originally Posted by GForce3062

Ouch! That's definately gotta suck! Maybe another possible Cyprien counter? Morsbane? With one lucky roll she/he(I don't know what gender Morsbane is yet) can make him worthless.

Now Morsbane could be an effective counter all by himself(and only 100 points!). His move is only 5, but the negation power has a range of 6.

[gamjuven]

Cyprien really starts sucking if his bride is also killed. I've playtested my vampire/krug grut army and cyprien will frequently do poorly if his wife gets the shaft first. That, and going against a roman army bonding with ne gok sa me burq sa, and havign the AE is just a really good army. Cyprien doesn't always earn back his points, it is probably around 50/50. he is still a really cool character though.

[killercactus]

Let's play theoryscape with Cy against the AE for a second.

Say the AE drop and get initiative (which they always do, it seems...) Cy has all 3 order markers, because if you want to keep him healthy, he needs them. The AE drop in a spread out formation all over the board on height. They fire 4 times at Cy with 4 dice each - that's an average of 8 skulls vs 5.33 shields = 2.67 wounds. Cy gets a turn, and eats an AE, so he now has 1.67 wounds. AE get another turn, 6 skulls vs 4 shields = 2 wounds - Cy is at 3.67. He eats an AE - 2.67. AE turn 3, 4 skulls vs 2.67 shields = 1.33 wounds - Cy is at 5 wounds. Eats a 3rd AE - 4 wounds.

So, what has happened in this round? The AE lose 3 members - 110/4*3 = 82.5 points lost. Cyprien has 4 wounds - 150/6*4 = 100 points lost, with possibility of recovery. The AE are actually ahead at this point, although Cy may recover some wounds. It seems about equal, however that is just one scenario, and it doesn't take into account the extra 45 points Cy's team spent drafting Sonya, who hasn't done anything at all yet.

My point is that your opponent drafting Cy is not an autoloss. Strategically positioned squads and durable heroes can take him down without too much trouble.

[ManTrainChooChoo]

With 8 movement and stealth flying I don't see the AE getting elevation on a cautious enough player (unless the AE drop on turn 1 and win initiative). And unless the AE end up getting equal ground with Cyprien, he'll be sitting at 5 defense vs. 4 attacks of 3.

[gamjuven]

Originally Posted by GoBigorGoHome

Cyprien also won't always kill somebody like you assume he will

Cyprien is defeinetely not an auto win, he can lose just as easily as anyone else, especailly if soulborgs are involved. He is a lot of fun to play with and he can do well. AE are always scary when they drop, frequently on the 1st turn with initiative as well. They most likely will not take out cyprien though. I have playtested this a couple of times, cyprien's movement, combined with being a miniature figure and not able to be seen all the time, also with the AE having horrible defense and cyprien being able to usually kill at least 1 a turn, makes the matchup for cyprien. The worst thing would come if all 4 AE can shoot at him while they have height, you could lose 195 pts very quickly to that misfortune.

Cyprien is not a powerhouse, he isn't even as game changing as ne gok sa can be, but he is so much cooler IMO. A goodbalance really

[TheRealQ]

Originally Posted by killercactus

Let's play theoryscape with Cy against the AE for a second.

Say the AE drop and get initiative (which they always do, it seems...) Cy has all 3 order markers, because if you want to keep him healthy, he needs them. The AE drop in a spread out formation all over the board on height. They fire 4 times at Cy with 4 dice each - that's an average of 8 skulls vs 5.33 shields = 2.67 wounds. Cy gets a turn, and eats an AE, so he now has 1.67 wounds. AE get another turn, 6 skulls vs 4 shields = 2 wounds - Cy is at 3.67. He eats an AE - 2.67. AE turn 3, 4 skulls vs 2.67 shields = 1.33 wounds - Cy is at 5 wounds. Eats a 3rd AE - 4 wounds.

So, what has happened in this round? The AE lose 3 members - 110/4*3 = 82.5 points lost. Cyprien has 4 wounds - 150/6*4 = 100 points lost, with possibility of recovery. The AE are actually ahead at this point, although Cy may recover some wounds. It seems about equal, however that is just one scenario, and it doesn't take into account the extra 45 points Cy's team spent drafting Sonya, who hasn't done anything at all yet.

My point is that your opponent drafting Cy is not an autoloss. Strategically positioned squads and durable heroes can take him down without too much trouble.

You didn't take Cyprien's Chilling Touch into account. The same number needed to Drop the AE in the first place is the same number Cyprien needs to auto-destroy a one life figure. If you are going to give the AE a Drop, advantage position, and initiative then I think it would be fair to give Cy an autokill his first turn in addition to his normal attack. As such he will drop two AE on the first turn, be almost fully healed, and outright dominate them after that.

I do agree with your point though that Cy can be taken down with strategy (and Soulborgs) and isn't a set win for anyone using him.

[NecroBlade]

Originally Posted by TheRealQ

As such he will drop two AE on the first turn, be almost fully healed, and outright dominate them after that.

Not unless you're playing them stupidly. He'd have to be able to get adjacent to two to kill them both in the same turn.

[killercactus]

I did take the chill into account - I'm assuming that the AE are not dropping next to one another, since Cy would have to be adjacent to 2 of them to kill them both. Also, I'm giving the AE height advantage every turn, assuming they can drop to places on the map that only one figure can fit on top of. I suppose that is a bit much to presume, but the AE will definitely have height for at least one or 2 turns.

Again, its theoryscape, btu the point is Cy can be beaten even by squads if played strategically.

[markwars]

Last night I played a couple of games with ninthdoc and it only confirmed that Cyprien is over rated. Here is what ninth threw at me...

Cyprien - 150
Sonya - 45
Iskra - 50
Rechets - 50
Marcu - 20
Deathreavers x 4 - 160
Dumutef - 25
TOTAL - 500

So I countered with this army:

Ashigaru Yari x 3 - 120
Ashigaru Harquebus x 2 - 120
Kaemon Awa - 120
Hatamoto Taro - 130
Isamu - 10
TOTAL - 500

In the beginning I worked on getting the Harquebus troops and Taro into a highground position. ninthdoc sent out Reavers and Iskra. Iskra was able to summon the Rechets early on and they surround Kaemon Awa. Kaemon's counterstrike was deadly though and killed two of them outright. Meanwhile the Harquebus troops that so many are disparaging sat with height and the Wait Then Fire ability and rained down four attack dice on Iskra, the remaining Rechet and several Reavers. They were deadly and by keeping them around Taro they kept him alive with the auto shield on his dice rolls while he boosted their defense. Once ninthdoc figured out that the Reavers weren't going to be able to take down the Harquebus troops easily he sent in Cyprien. The vampire tried his best and managed to kill a few of them but between the Wait Then Fire and Kaemon's double attack he went down quickly and ignominiously. After that it was just clean up. In the end I lost one unit of Harquebus, a couple of individual Yari, and Isamu. I was amazed at how well Taro worked in this army, he was easily worth the 130 points and I won't be so quick to write him off as worthless anymore.

After that game ninth had had it. He was convinced he hadn't played the vamps correctly so he wanted to play his army again. I said sure, but I wanted to switch mine around so for the second game I played this army:

Ashigaru Harquebus x 2 - 120
Kaemon Awa - 120
Roman Legionnaires x 3 - 150
Marcus - 100
Isamu - 10

Once again the game opened with me rushing the Harquebus to gain height and ninth moved his Reavers into position. In the second round I focused on getting the Legionnaires into position and ninth brought Cyprien in again. Once again the Harquebues' four shots did him in. Try as he might his four defense just wasn't enough and down he went. ninth played this game pretty well and made it closer than the first. In the end I was left with two Harquebus troops, one unit of Legionnaires, Kaemon, Marcus and Isamu. The vampires did not impress me. If anything is broken it is the Ashigaru Harquebus.