The Book of Aurora

[IAmBatman]

So it's sounding like amongst the unreleased stuff, this is reevaluation priority #1 in the eyes of our CRB (Competitive Review Board). What do folks think we ought to do in terms of direction here? I don't want to see us releasing this as is against strong warnings from the CRB.

[Dysole]

I noticed that no one tried her as part of a pod build against an OM hub army like Prof X out Mr. Fantastic (although I also thought the Outcast build was a clever idea as well and the easiest way to boost her roll). That'd be where my concern would be. Set her up with Zemo and then some other scissory protection units. I think it can be balanced but I'm not sure if d20 roll, stats, or cost is the correct way to go yet.

~Dysole, noting that this power can be as potent as Joker (I)

[dok]

Actually, there are a few tests against Hub builds. Hahma's initials had Aurora successfully strip OMs from both ProfX and Nick Fury (somewhat surprising IMO, since those are two hubs that should be able to sit back and avoid the power to some extent). One of the other testers put her against MrF, but they said MrF ducked behind a LoS blocker between rounds ("very easy to do on this map") and Aurora died quickly.

But yeah, nobody really leveraged her in a pod build and relied on her just as a passive OM remover.

The obvious armies to try Aurora against are armies that put an OM hub at the front (Luke Cage, Frankenstein, Iron Man 5, MrF, etc), or just any army that sends big bruisers out front sequentially. Kind of sucks to have, say, Balder run up to bash heads, and then get shut down for the whole round while Aurora's buddies wailed on him. (I chose Balder as the example because that would be funny.)

My inclination would be (a) tone down her stats a bit (does she really merit such high defense?) and (b) limit OMs placed (maximum of one OM? No OM 1?) when the power hits instead of making it zero.

[IAmBatman]

A is my first inclination as well. I could see dropping her attack and defense each by one.

The key for her seems to be trying her in a mobile pod. But since she's a flier, if Indigo-1 is nerfed, who does that leave to move around a pod with her in it effectively? That 5 space range limitation on Light of Inner Peace is pretty helpful otherwise (though front running OM hubs obviously are still vulnerable, as you note, dok).

[Hahma]

I don't know that we were that big on pod builds back then, so it wasn't as much of a focus. We didn't really have a bunch of pre-set rock/paper/scissor builds that were competitively tested to know about.

So the new standard is likely going to have specific builds for designs that they will be able to crush another tourney type build, but also one that they can get crushed by a different tourney type build. So cost will be affected by them being able to be put in a certain build and on any given Sunday, either be the Rock, Scissors or Paper, depending on who shows up as an opponent?

[Dysole]

Martian Manhunter and Angel are the quickest I can think of. Angel you'll probably have to worry about more than Manhunter due to cost but I can see a Manhunter build utilizing the crap out of her.

~Dysole, passively standing by

[dok]

Yes, the 5 space range keeps this from being far too strong, I agree. There is a reason she didn't dominate playtests. I am worried about it, but almost more because of certain matchups and the negative play experience I feel this unit could create than a generalized "this is super broken" effect.

My first plan is to give her a shot in a Martian Manhunter build. Toss in Vulture and possibly Angel so that I can really bring a crowd. Bring a few defensive figures (definitely Archangel if I didn't bring Angel) and probably a big attack to supplement MM's.

Or I could try the obvious synergy builds: A ProfX build would definitely bring Angel and Storm for extra poddy goodness, while an Adventurer build would definitely include Jocasta. Mastermind+Magneto1 makes a lot of sense too.

[weebaer]

I like the stat decrease. I think she will be strong in a pod and can turn the tide of a game very fast. I agree with Hahma that she will be more of a rock paper scissors kind of figure (once her stats are reevaluated and once Indigo-1 gets fixed). She will definitely change the focus of her opponent to taking her out before she gets too close.

*Just out of curiosity* Will the other figs from Alpha Flight be Adventurers?

[IAmBatman]

Originally Posted by weebaer

*Just out of curiosity* Will the other figs from Alpha Flight be Adventurers?

Nothing in the works on that front at the moment.

If I have time for playtesting this week, I might try a test or two with her with some of the more abusive combos to see if I can't highlight/back up some of the expressed concerns.

[dok]

Originally Posted by Hahma

So the new standard is likely going to have specific builds for designs that they will be able to crush another tourney type build, but also one that they can get crushed by a different tourney type build. So cost will be affected by them being able to be put in a certain build and on any given Sunday, either be the Rock, Scissors or Paper, depending on who shows up as an opponent?

Well, I don't know what the standard for this project will be. My standard, in playtesting for C3V, Summoner Wars, or my own customs, is always to see what a design can do in its strongest build, and evaluate balance based on that.

I don't particularly want to rely on Rock-Paper-Scissors relationships for things to be balanced. Everything will have a counter, but if it is crushing standard builds too reliably, that's an issue in my mind.

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

Nothing in the works on that front at the moment.

I had just assumed based on these two that we were going to see Alpha Flight developing as an Adventurer pod. If that's not the case, then perhaps the class here can be set to allow for future Alpha Flight designs to have their own synergy group?

Yes, I know I'm going waaaaaay beyond the scope of what we're here for, sorry...

[SirGalahad]

Originally Posted by dok

Yes, I know I'm going waaaaaay beyond the scope of what we're here for, sorry...

I don't hear anybody complaining.

I, for one, appreciate the feedback. I'm just an amateur hack--not a game designer like some of you out there.

[Hahma]

Originally Posted by dok

Well, I don't know what the standard for this project will be. My standard, in playtesting for C3V, Summoner Wars, or my own customs, is always to see what a design can do in its strongest build, and evaluate balance based on that.

I don't particularly want to rely on Rock-Paper-Scissors relationships for things to be balanced. Everything will have a counter, but if it is crushing standard builds too reliably, that's an issue in my mind.

.

I brought up the rock/paper/scissors because it has been brought up in other threads in having a design go against a scissors army or whatever.

I don't know if you guys have specific builds that you consider rocks, scissors or paper and just pull a build off a master list to compare and test with. I mean obviously a build with a unit that can affect opponent's OM hog is a counter to that, but then there should be a counter to the OM manipulator and minimize their effects and then beat their army. Sure a lot of builds rely on synergy and OM efficiency, but perhaps a build that has more OM flexibility can counter the OM manipulator?

Testing a unit in it's strongest build can likely require testing just to find out which build is their strongest build, unless it's just plainly obvious. But then since there are continuously more units added to the pool, then the pretty strong build earlier can later become a really strong build with a new unit or synergy. If a unit is tested in it's current strongest build, then for sure they shouldn't be steamrolling all other builds consistently, there should be counters to them so that that particular unit's strongest build can be beat in a fair amount of different manners.

When I tested Aurora, her flying was huge and especially when she got the last OM and could fly with supersonic flying and not worry about having to attack, then if she were able to hit her roll, then the OM hog on the other team couldn't get their OM's.

In reflection, she did good in my tests, but it was kind of a focus and her use may have been at the expense of a teammates activation that might have served the group better. But maybe not. Perhaps as mentioned, dropping her attack and defense by 1 can help. At least if her defense is dropped, she will have an easier time of taking wounds if she speeds out to get near the enemy OM hog.