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  #3625  
Old September 3rd, 2019, 07:29 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

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Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape View Post
So do you think Durgeth Supremacy would be too restricting? So go with Savage Supremacy? I guess the precedent there is with SBN not having Marro Supremacy specifically but rather Hive Supremacy which allowed him to buff both Marro and Wulsinu. So I think I could go with both and still be okay.
If you are going to make a power that requires "every army card you control" to be the same class/personality, then I think you should go with Savage, because requiring all Durgeth, would be annoying, and reduce their bonding/synergy options unnecessarily. Unlike the Knights of Black Guard, Sacred Band, and the 4th Mass, the Durgeth are not exceptionally powerful, and they don't need to be limited in such a way. Durgeth supremacy isn't bad, I just don't think that it should require the whole army to be Durgeth in order to work. Requiring all your order markers to be on Durgeth is an interesting take, which I think could work. It's limiting, but not so much so that the ability is useless in an army that isn't all Durgeth. You have have options, just don't make the ability too annoying/limiting to use.


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Originally Posted by capsocrates View Post
I agree that the Comfrey Plants should be left as a thing they make use of when they're not in the heat of battle.
So you don't think this is something that could be represented in the life stat at all? Like if I gave Veguzza 7 or 8 life?
Considering Uzog is only 6 Life, I don't think you can go above that for a figure with such a small frame.
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  #3626  
Old September 3rd, 2019, 07:46 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

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Originally Posted by Leaf_It View Post
Considering Uzog is only 6 Life, I don't think you can go above that for a figure with such a small frame.
Well, again Valguard has set the precedent. There are plenty of units with less life than him but bigger, beefier frames.

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  #3627  
Old September 3rd, 2019, 07:57 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

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Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf_It View Post
Considering Uzog is only 6 Life, I don't think you can go above that for a figure with such a small frame.
Well, again Valguard has set the precedent. There are plenty of units with less life than him but bigger, beefier frames.
Although it is worth noting uzog at least in theory have the same history lizard arms not withstanding


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  #3628  
Old September 4th, 2019, 12:27 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

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Originally Posted by capsocrates View Post
I agree that the Comfrey Plants should be left as a thing they make use of when they're not in the heat of battle.
mmm...that's a very good insight. Hadn't thought of that actually. Kinda makes sense a medicinal herb would be used after the battle to heal wounds etc, not in the middle of one. I think there's some logical sense there...this might have swayed me enough.

Thanks guys!

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  #3629  
Old September 6th, 2019, 02:38 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop


Well met!

At Tornado’s suggestion, I present Ueshi. I’ve been back and forth with Tornado and others about the design and will be testing it in October, along with a Lawman for which I haven’t yet found a figure.


UESHI
(Figure is Heroclix Deadpool 001A)

General: Einar
Species: Human
Class: Warrior
Personality: Merciful

Life: 5
Move: 6
Range: 3
Attack: 3
Defense: 3

Size: Medium 5

Points: 130-150

Double Assault

Aikido
When Ueshi would inflict enough Wounds to destroy a figure, instead leave it with one Life and roll a 20-sided die, on a roll of 1-18, remove one unrevealed Order Marker from its card; on a roll of 19-20 destroy the figure.

Evasive Deflection
When Ueshi or a Friendly figure adjacent to Ueshi rolls defense dice against an attack from a figure within 3 clear sight spaces of Ueshi, and a skull is rolled, roll a 20-sided die. On a roll of 15 or higher, all damage is ignored, Ueshi may move 3 spaces, and the attacking figure receives a wound. Ueshi never receives leaving engagement attacks during Evasive Deflection. Aikido applies to Evasive Deflection.

Last edited by kolakoski; September 6th, 2019 at 02:58 PM.
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  #3630  
Old September 6th, 2019, 03:02 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

First, I find it unlikely that a Deadpool figure would not look like Deadpool, but I could be wrong.

There is too much going on here. Range 3 is strange; it allows him to throw 20 levels high, but only a few steps away. Aikido would need a lot more words to clarify what "leave it with one Life" actually means in game terms (no, it's not that simple), which is bad for a card with so much text already. The order marker thing would need more words for commons too. Evasive Deflection is cool, but I'm pretty much against any all-encompassing defensive power because Raelin already exists, and the powers would stack. Not that I think Evasive Deflection is all that good.

The biggest problem is that I see Ueshi as a poor unit. Even if he didn't cost a ton, I could instead spend points on a figure that can actually remove enemy units from the battlefield. It wouldn't be fun to play against, as Ueshi's attacks would drain turns instead of killing things, just drawing the game out without really advancing it. This would be especially annoying in endgame; Ueshi vs a couple of squaddies could not-kill each other all day.
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  #3631  
Old September 6th, 2019, 04:07 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Wait, is Double Assualt supposed to be a third power on this card? I don't see any text for it? That, and I don't remember if it's preexisting already...

Aikido. I'll be frank, this makes no sense to me. Why would you ever NOT want to kill an opponents figure?! How is removing an OM from their card more advantageous than killing them? When you think about it, it's not. In fact, they're practically the same result. Even if the figure had OM's on it's card, they would lose the turn whether you destroy them or remove the marker.

EDIT: Oh...unless of course you're trying to make this ability apply to a squad figure...which I don't think it does very well.
EDIT2: Just read up on Aikido...Google states it "is to end a conflict peacefully and without injury." With this in mind, I can see why you'd make the ability so easy to remove an order marker...but Gosh, that just seems really spammy. Especially because EVERYTHING in Heroscape (even the name: Battle of all Time) centers around a conflict. I don't think this unit would have much place in the canon because who would summon him if he'd prefer not to fight? I think the design is contradictory to what Heroscape is about at it's core...a conflict.

Evasive Deflection is just a mouthful with a lot of stuff going on. I think it's just too much at this point.

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  #3632  
Old September 6th, 2019, 06:53 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop


Well met!

Wow! There doesn’t seem to be any part of Ueshi you like. OK, but let me explain . . . [My comments in brackets]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scytale View Post
First, I find it unlikely that a Deadpool figure would not look like Deadpool, but I could be wrong.

[No swords, no guns, but OK. Considered Pathfinder’s Sajan, but a satisfactory figure might be tough to find.]

There is too much going on here. Range 3 is strange; it allows him to throw 20 levels high, but only a few steps away.

[I took my cue from Elaria the Pale’s knife throwing range of 4.]

Aikido would need a lot more words to clarify what "leave it with one Life" actually means in game terms (no, it's not that simple), which is bad for a card with so much text already. The order marker thing would need more words for commons too.

[Aikido is intended to wound units to the point of death, then either remove an OM (leaving the unit with 1 Life) or destroying the unit, depending on the die roll. It could perhaps be better worded, but I believe the intent is clear.]

Evasive Deflection is cool, but I'm pretty much against any all-encompassing defensive power because Raelin already exists, and the powers would stack. Not that I think Evasive Deflection is all that good.

[Thorgrim’s power stacks with Raelin’s, and Evasive Deflection requires a successful die roll.]. I respectfully disagree as to how good a power it is. With Aikido, it looks to be “wierdly effective” against squads, according to Tornado.]

The biggest problem is that I see Ueshi as a poor unit. Even if he didn't cost a ton, I could instead spend points on a figure that can actually remove enemy units from the battlefield. It wouldn't be fun to play against, as Ueshi's attacks would drain turns instead of killing things, just drawing the game out without really advancing it. This would be especially annoying in endgame; Ueshi vs a couple of squaddies could not-kill each other all day.

[Ueshi is best on OM 1, especially against squads. If they lose turns, Ueshi ‘s mates can wreak havoc. Remember that there is no limitation on the damage Ueshi can inflict before the last point of Life. Even then, there is a 10% chance of his destroying the target. Daredevil in the Netflix series refused to kill, but sure did a lot of damage, incapacitating countless enemies. If Ueshi were observed on the battlefield, he could very well be summoned in spite of his reluctance to strike a killing blow. There are all kinds of thematic ways to justify such a character in the Heroscape universe from my perspective.]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape View Post
Wait, is Double Assualt supposed to be a third power on this card? I don't see any text for it? That, and I don't remember if it's preexisting already...

[Sorry. To save typing on my phone, I didn’t type it out as, yes, it’s preexisting.]

Aikido. I'll be frank, this makes no sense to me. Why would you ever NOT want to kill an opponents figure?! How is removing an OM from their card more advantageous than killing them? When you think about it, it's not. In fact, they're practically the same result. Even if the figure had OM's on it's card, they would lose the turn whether you destroy them or remove the marker.

[Again, it’s based on the figure’s moral code. And removing OMs can be better than killing, especially against squads.]

EDIT: Oh...unless of course you're trying to make this ability apply to a squad figure...which I don't think it does very well.

[Actually, against Bonding squads or monolithic squad armies Ueshi can be devastating. If Ueshi attacks a squad figure and would otherwise inflict a wound, 90% of the time Ueshi will remove an OM.]


EDIT2: Just read up on Aikido...Google states it "is to end a conflict peacefully and without injury." With this in mind, I can see why you'd make the ability so easy to remove an order marker...but Gosh, that just seems really spammy. Especially because EVERYTHING in Heroscape (even the name: Battle of all Time) centers around a conflict. I don't think this unit would have much place in the canon because who would summon him if he'd prefer not to fight? I think the design is contradictory to what Heroscape is about at it's core...a conflict.

[In spite of his self imposed limitations, as shown above, he can be effective directly and indirectly in the destruction of an opponent’s army.]

Evasive Deflection is just a mouthful with a lot of stuff going on. I think it's just too much at this point.

[If you do what the power says, it’s easy to apply, and it’s uses are intuitive, IMHO. I could not disagree with you more.]

[That being said, I can accept rejection, as long as it is not purely prejucial, arbitrary and/or subjective. I appreciate all the feedback and support I’ve received up to this point and refuse to take any of this personally, although I was obviously stunned by the intensity of your dislike for every aspect of every stat and power of this unit.]

[Perhaps the battle report of our first test will enlighten us - one way or the other.]
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  #3633  
Old September 6th, 2019, 08:23 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by kolakoski View Post

Well met!

At Tornado’s suggestion, I present Ueshi. I’ve been back and forth with Tornado and others about the design and will be testing it in October, along with a Lawman for which I haven’t yet found a figure.


UESHI
(Figure is Heroclix Deadpool 001A)

General: Einar
Species: Human
Class: Warrior
Personality: Merciful

Life: 5
Move: 6
Range: 3
Attack: 3
Defense: 3

Size: Medium 5

Points: 130-150

Double Assault

Aikido
When Ueshi would inflict enough Wounds to destroy a figure, instead leave it with one Life and roll a 20-sided die, on a roll of 1-18, remove one unrevealed Order Marker from its card; on a roll of 19-20 destroy the figure.

Evasive Deflection
When Ueshi or a Friendly figure adjacent to Ueshi rolls defense dice against an attack from a figure within 3 clear sight spaces of Ueshi, and a skull is rolled, roll a 20-sided die. On a roll of 15 or higher, all damage is ignored, Ueshi may move 3 spaces, and the attacking figure receives a wound. Ueshi never receives leaving engagement attacks during Evasive Deflection. Aikido applies to Evasive Deflection.
Here's the mini, so everybody is on the same page:



I really don't see 3 range here. You say you've drawn your inspiration from Elaria, but she very obviously has throwing knives (and a lot of them). This dude just looks to have run-of-the-mill swords.

While we're talking about the mini, it really does look like Deadpool.

I get where you're going with the OM removal power, but it's really just never going to be worth it. You have to give up a turn (not really, but you give up any attacks that could destroy anything) for a chance at making your opponent give up a turn. It just shortens a round without giving Ueshi's side an advantage.

Evasive Deflection is also weird. As written, he could "deflect" a melee attack from a figure two spaces away, run three spaces directly away from the attacking figure (leaving him 5 spaces away), and then inflict a wound on the attacking figure. I'm not sure exactly what the theme of the power is supposed to be, but that interaction doesn't fit any theme I'm coming up with.
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  #3634  
Old September 6th, 2019, 08:37 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

That's deadpool


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  #3635  
Old September 6th, 2019, 10:31 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop


Well met!

My comments in brackets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by superfrog View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by kolakoski View Post

Well met!

At Tornado’s suggestion, I present Ueshi. I’ve been back and forth with Tornado and others about the design and will be testing it in October, along with a Lawman for which I haven’t yet found a figure.


UESHI
(Figure is Heroclix Deadpool 001A)

General: Einar
Species: Human
Class: Warrior
Personality: Merciful

Life: 5
Move: 6
Range: 3
Attack: 3
Defense: 3

Size: Medium 5

Points: 130-150

Double Assault

Aikido
When Ueshi would inflict enough Wounds to destroy a figure, instead leave it with one Life and roll a 20-sided die, on a roll of 1-18, remove one unrevealed Order Marker from its card; on a roll of 19-20 destroy the figure.

Evasive Deflection
When Ueshi or a Friendly figure adjacent to Ueshi rolls defense dice against an attack from a figure within 3 clear sight spaces of Ueshi, and a skull is rolled, roll a 20-sided die. On a roll of 15 or higher, all damage is ignored, Ueshi may move 3 spaces, and the attacking figure receives a wound. Ueshi never receives leaving engagement attacks during Evasive Deflection. Aikido applies to Evasive Deflection.
Here's the mini, so everybody is on the same page:



I really don't see 3 range here. You say you've drawn your inspiration from Elaria, but she very obviously has throwing knives (and a lot of them). This dude just looks to have run-of-the-mill swords.

While we're talking about the mini, it really does look like Deadpool.

[The pic I saw appeared to have him bear a long nunchuck. In any event, I get that a new figure must be found. Whatever Ueshi is throwing, a stick, some sort of spring loaded projectile, etc., may or may not be visible on the mini. If it must be visible, I get that, but it doesn’t preclude his range or his ability as being viable on its face with Elaria as an example.]

I get where you're going with the OM removal power, but it's really just never going to be worth it. You have to give up a turn (not really, but you give up any attacks that could destroy anything) for a chance at making your opponent give up a turn. It just shortens a round without giving Ueshi's side an advantage.

[The OM removal possibility only happens if the target is 1 wound from death. Plenty of damage is done up to that point. And removing OMs from a squad is so worth not killing 1 squad figure.]

Evasive Deflection is also weird. As written, he could "deflect" a melee attack from a figure two spaces away, run three spaces directly away from the attacking figure (leaving him 5 spaces away), and then inflict a wound on the attacking figure. I'm not sure exactly what the theme of the power is supposed to be, but that interaction doesn't fit any theme I'm coming up with.

[The moving and the wounding (or, most likely, as Aikido is in play, OM removal are abstracts of any number of deflections seen in martial arts movies and tv series. Ueshi could be deflecting an attack back at its source from adjacency or at range with a throw, at any time before, during or after its movement, which could be a dodge, roll, leap, follow through, strategic repositioning, whatever. That you haven’t come up with it doesn’t make it invalid.]
I am sorry you all cannot see or imagine how Ueshi actually plays, what interesting dynamics he brings to the table. Your minds are clearly closed. Perhaps our testing will open them. Meanwhile, I shall continue searching for an appropriate figure. Our choice of figure (from chas’ massive collection) for the test may give us a direction.

P.S.: Is the Heroclix Foot Ninja with the 3 segmented staff viable?



Last edited by kolakoski; September 6th, 2019 at 10:47 PM.
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  #3636  
Old September 6th, 2019, 10:42 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

To come into this thread, get 4 respected customs creators point out some issues, and then accuse us of being closed-minded is baffling.

I'm not sure what prejudice you think we have against you or this design. In your only submission experience with the SoV so far, you've received nothing but upvotes, and deservingly so.
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