The Book of Pluto

[johnny139]

I'd be happy dropping his Attack down to 6 - with range that seems more reasonable actually. Then maybe bump his points a bit if necessary - I feel like less than 7 Life would be unrealistic for one of Olympia's Big Three.

[johnny139]

Test in from Ronin...

Originally Posted by Ronin

C3G STANDARD PLAYTEST FEEDBACK FORM

NAME OF THE PLAYTEST UNIT: Pluto

Army Test
Map: Crash Landing (random Permanent Glyph replacing Wannok)
Units: Pluto, Moloids x19 (600) vs Groot, Gentleman Ghost, Moloids x16 (600)

Spoiler Alert!

This game was very one-sided in favor of Pluto; probably not a balance concern so much as the right unit with the right match-up on the right map.

Pluto took the first initiative and was able to get to the high ground very quickly, and aside from Gentleman Ghost harassing him and getting one-shotted, he didn't get attacked for the most-part. He was able to tear through Moloids fairly quickly, and built up enough Lord of Hades power to do some serious damage to poor Groot, who was unable to really get back at him due to being tied up (and unable to use ladders).

Nineteen Moloids in one army ultimately ended up being redundant. Seven or so were never even moved from the Start Zone. Though of course, there are some advantages to having extras. Early on, before enemy Moloids came into sight, Pluto destroyed one of his own just for the Lord of Hades bonus.

Toward the end of the match (which only lasted four rounds), Gentleman Ghost popped back up and knocked Pluto's hat off, but it was a very minor victory.

One of Pluto's Moloids grabbed the glyph early on, but it turned out to be Superspeed, which didn't come into play much.

Who won? List figures remaining in the winning army (include life remaining for heroes): Pluto with one wound, 10 Moloids

___________________________________________________________

Army Test
Map: Crash Landing (random permanent glyph)
Units: Pluto, Gentleman Ghost, Civilians x3, Moloid x9 (800) vs Ventriloquist, Hired Guns, Crime Alley Crooks x2, Shocker, Vulture, Grey Gargoyle (800)

Spoiler Alert!

This match turned out much closer. The map still favors Pluto, but this time Team 2 is more mobile, packing more firepower, and also a little better-suited to get Pluto's helm away from him.

Pluto opened up by mobilizing the Civilians, then moving to the high ground. He also destroyed Gentleman Ghost early on for the Lord of Hades boost. Meanwhile, the Thieves mobilized Grey Gargoyle, Shocker and the Crime Alley Crooks, who had some early dust-ups with Pluto's Moloids.

Grey Gargoyle moved in and tried to attack Pluto at the start of the second round, but failed to do damage and was shortly surrounded by Moloids and Civilians, who would keep him pinned down for a while. After some more Crook-v-Moloid action, Vulture manages to swoop in and grab Hades' Helm, though he takes a couple wounds doing it. Unfortunately, Pluto destroys him immediately thereafter, and the Helm is dropped adjacent to Pluto as the round ends.

The next initiative was critical, as a Thief initiative would give Shocker the chance to knock Pluto off his high ground perch. Unfortunately for the Thieves, Pluto takes the initiative and reclaims his hat. He then wounds Shocker, and a Moloid manages to beat the odds and put a wound on Grey Gargoyle. By the end of the round, there are three Moloids (one of whom has worked his way over to the glyph and uncovered a largely useless Glyph of Superspeed) and one Crime Alley Crook remaining.

Thieves take initiative in the next round, and Shocker manages to put down a couple Moloids, chaining into a turn for the Crime Alley Crook, who takes down a Civilian and disengages Grey Gargoyle with Mugging. Pluto (rolling two extra dice from Lord of Hades) puts three wounds on Grey Gargoyle. Grey Gargoyle flies up to Pluto's level and attacks, finally putting a wound on the death god, and dropping the Helm in the molten lava atop the map. Pluto is turned to stone, costing him a turn. Fortunately for him, he had his last OM for the round on Gentleman Ghost, who returns permanently to the battle and engages and attacks Shocker, but fails to do damage.

Up next is another big initiative. Pluto is finally vulnerable without his Helm, and Shocker has a chance to hit him and use Vibroshock Knockback to put him in the lava. (No chance to auto-destroy because of Olympian Fortitiude, but it's still an easy two wounds). Shocker needs two skulls to put Pluto in the lava. More than that will let him drop Pluto even farther back into the lava, necessitating that Pluto dig himself out while taking damage.

The Thieves take initiative, and Shocker attacks Ghost first. He does no damage, but still rolls a couple skulls and is able to move Gentleman Ghost out of engagement so that Shocker can target Pluto. Shocker attacks Pluto, but rolls just one skull and does no damage. A couple Civilians, moved with Panic, mob Shocker to prevent him from attacking Pluto. Pluto destroys Grey Gargoyle and Gentleman Ghost takes down the last Crook.

This leads into the match's climactic showdown; Team 2 finally moves out the Hired Guns, who they had been keeping in reserve. In the ensuing firefight, the Hired Guns manage to take down Gentleman Ghost, the remaining five or so Civilians, and the last Moloid, while Pluto destroys Shocker and finishes off the Hired Guns.

Pluto took 26 attacks from the Hired Guns in total before he managed to destroy them. Pluto just skated by here, occasionally using Lord of Hades to shore up against their better rolls, and came out of the encounter with six total wounds (one from Grey Gargoyle and five from the Hired Guns). Worth noting that he had height advantage throughout the encounter, so he was rolling 7 defense dice, or 8 when he had a chance to use Lord of Hades.

After the Hired Guns went down, Ventriloquist got one shot at Pluto, but flubbed two of his attack rolls, and Pluto unsurprisingly managed to defend against the other, 1-skull, roll before crushing Ventriloquist.


Who won? List figures remaining in the winning army (include life remaining for heroes): Pluto with 6 wounds

THOUGHTS ON THE TESTED UNIT'S COST, BALANCE, & DRAFTABILITY: Pluto seems balanced for these fairly low-point matches. He crushed in the first one, but that was kind of an optimal scenario for him. He definitely doesn't like units that can make it hard for him to hold onto his Helm. Resurrection units are also somewhat annoying for him to fight against, since they can pull themselves off his card and back into the fight before he can use them for Lord of Hades.

GENERAL THOUGHTS ON THE TESTED UNIT: I tried Pluto out both with and against Gentleman Ghost; he has an interesting interaction with resurrection units on his own team in that he can kill them himself, use them for Lord of Hades, and then they can be resurrected later. In most cases, I suspect this isn't a great deal, but it might be a good idea for someone to test him with zombies. They might fit well into that tie-down screen category that he likes so well. Probably not as good for him as Moloids, but they might be a good synergy in higher-point armies where you can't just tank up on Moloids. Gentleman Ghost also isn't a bad team-up, as Heroes go, since he's not too expensive and Pluto can kill him off for the bonus and still fairly reliably use him later.

Awkward rules scenario: in case of Pluto vs Ghost Rider, when Pluto kills a unit, the two have to roll-off to see who gets to place the unit on Pluto's card. This gets you two piles of units on Pluto's card; those that were placed with Lord of Hades (eligible to be used by Pluto) and those that were placed with Penance Stare. The ones placed by Penance Stare are eligible to be used by Ghost Rider's Penance Stare, and according to current wording on Pluto's card, technically also available for Lord of Hades, so he could just use up those ones to avoid Ghost Rider's Penance Stare bonus.

Also, is it just me, or is it really annoying that Marvel decided to go 50/50 on Greek vs Roman names? I keep trying to call him Hades.

[johnny139]

...and in from Sock.

These ones were less helpful since he had him in Hero heavy armies, but between the two I'm thinking that a drop in Attack to 6 should probably be sufficient. He's good with Moloids, but it's such a narrow build that I don't think he needs much of a boost.

I'd like another set or two of tests, though, of course, beforehand.

Originally Posted by Aggressive Sock

I had a couple strategies going into the playtests. I don't have many squad based armies, so I wasn't able to run that test. But hopefully these will suffice:

C3G STANDARD PLAYTEST FEEDBACK FORM

NAME OF THE PLAYTEST UNIT: Pluto

Army Test 1
Map: Chernobyl
Units:
Pluto, War-Machine, Green Arrow, Blob(995)
vs.
Magneto, Gorgon, Psylocke, Destiny(980)

Spoiler Alert!

Summary:
I figured War-Machine would go well with Pluto, to keep figures a little weary at getting adjacent to him. However, Magneto rushed in, War-Machine failed his ACG roll, and Magneto tossed him back towards his allies to which they quickly killed him off. Blob locked down Magneto, to keep him from throwing anyone around. Pluto took height, causing lots of damage on Magneto and Psylocke. He ended up killing them both, and then taking it to Gorgon, who just killed Green Arrow in 1 shot. Pluto and Gorgon traded blows, but Pluto got the best of him. Then Pluto made his way to the lone survivor, Destiny. Pluto put 5 wounds on her, but she actually, hilariously enough, dealt the final wound on Pluto with her 1 skull, as he whiffed his defense. Blob then mopped her up.
Damage caused by figure:
-1 wound on Magneto.
-3 wounds on Magneto.
-1 wound on Gorgon.
-2 wounds on Psylocke.
-1 wound on Psylocke.
-2 wounds on Psylocke.
-2 wounds on Magneto.
-4 wounds on Gorgon.(removed Magneto and Psylocke)
-5 wounds on Gorgon.
-1 wound on Destiny(removed Gorgon)
-4 wounds on Destiny.
Notes:
-Psylocke is Magneto's Outcast.
-Green Arrow was killed in 1 shot by Gorgon from height.
-HoI is taken away, but Pluto retrieves it.
-HoI keeps Pluto from taking LE, allowing him to get non-adjacent to Gorgon.
-OF keeps Pluto alive from 5 wounds from Gorgon.
-Pluto rolls 6 skulls on Gorgon, Gorgon only rolls 1 shield.
Result:
Blob with 1 wound.

___________________________________________________________

Army Test 2
Map: Chernobyl
Units:
Pluto, Captain America, Star-Sapphire(990)
vs.
Fantastic Four(1000)

Spoiler Alert!

Summary:
The 2 teams met in the middle, off to the side, and the Fantastic Four got all their troops together quick, for the height advantage over Cap. Pluto was equal height, but couldn't manage to land any solid blows other than his initital 3 wounds on Mr. Fantastic. Cap landed 3 on Invisible Woman, but he was soon destroyed by Thing from height. Star-Sapphire tried coming in and attacking Mr. Fantastic, but couldn't seem to hurt him, even with her double attacks. Pluto managed to get 1 more wound on Mr. Fantastic, after several less than impressive rolls, but Thing finished off Star-Sapphire with a couple of hits. Pluto was then taken out by Thing, using a fully enhanced Clobberin' Time.
Damage caused by figure:
-3 wounds on Mr. Fantastic.
-1 wound on Mr. Fantastic.
Notes:
-Pluto is Star Sapphire's Beloved.
-Pluto whiffed his defense, 3 wounds from Mr. F.
-Thing deals 4 wounds on Cap, killing him in the 2nd round.
Result:
Mr. Fantastic with 4 wounds. Invisible Woman with 3 wounds. Thing with 0 wounds. Human Torch with 0 wounds.

___________________________________________________________

Army Test 3
Map: Chernobyl
Units:
Pluto, Oracle, Captain America, Bane(950)
vs.
Star-Lord, Human Torch, Rocket Raccoon, Gamora(960)

Spoiler Alert!

Summary:
Both teams came out swinging, with lots of support backing them up. Star-Lord moved in with Gamora and Human Torch. Rigth away getting a couple wounds on Cap. Gamora moved in on Bane, getting a good hit in, but Bane countered back rolling a 20 for his VI, plus height and Cap, and stomped her a new one. Pluto finished off Star-Lord, then Gamora. Human Torch traded a hit with Cap, fighting over the glyph, but Human Torch managed to knock it away, then grab it and hold onto it. He went adjacent to Pluto and Bane, causing them both 2 wounds each, killing Bane, not having to roll for LE thanks to the glyph, and then used his SNSA killing Cap and putting Pluto down to 1 wound away from death. Pluto decimated HT in return. Rocket got a shot with his BFG on Pluto, killing him. Oracle met Rocket, but Rocket got the upper hand after a few traded shots.
Damage caused by figure:
-3 wounds on Star-Lord.(height, Cap, Bane, and Oracle revealed her X)
-4 wounds on Gamora.(height, Cap, Bane, Oracle revealed her X, non-adjacent, removed Star-Lord)
-1 wound on Gamora.(Cap, Bane)
-6 wounds on Human Torch.(Oracle reveals her X, removed Gamora, HT whiffs defense)
Notes:
-Human Torch picks up HoI glyph.
-Human Torch moves adjacent to Pluto and Bane.
-Human Torch uses FO4 without having to roll for LE, puts 2 wounds on Pluto and Bane.
-Human Torch uses SNSA on Pluto and Cap, 2 wounds on Cap, killing him, 2 wounds on Pluto.
-Rocket Raccoon uses his SA on Pluto, Pluto whiffs defense(removed HT), kills him.
-Oracle whiffs her defense against RR, 3 wounds, she's dead.
Result:
Rocket Raccoon with 1 wound.

THOUGHTS ON THE TESTED UNIT'S COST, BALANCE, & DRAFTABILITY: I think he works well, and is a definite threat. With the right army, I can see him really going on a tear, if the luck is in his favor with his rolls(they weren't in the 2nd game). An army of units boosting him, such as Cap and Bane, I could easily see him really causing some pain, especially if he had height. Another strategy is to surround him with units that make it difficult to get close to him, which could lead to his advantage for sure. Overall, I think for his point value, he is pretty well balanced, and certainly draftable. Though, once he loses the glyph, he starts to struggle a lot.

GENERAL THOUGHTS ON THE TESTED UNIT: He is fun to play, and he can be a devastating hitter. However, him losing that glyph, will spell the tide changing moment for him. Not being able to leave engagements freely, and being able to be targeted non-adjacently, takes away his biggest advantage. Personally, I would not lower his attack based on these 2 tests, unless you lower his points 10-20. The 1st game was close, but the 2nd game ended pretty badly for him. Even though he was 1 wound away from killing Mr. Fantastic, which certainly would have turned the tide and could have dramatically changed things, he was struggling as soon as he got stuck next to Mr. Fantastic.

[TrollBrute]

I would definitely drop his attack by 1, but I think it would be a good idea to raise his cost slightly too. So far with Moloids, he's 5-0 with a few of those being big wins. Even Sock found him fairly balanced in bad match-ups where he was lacking his biggest advantage.

[johnny139]

Attack dropped. How far are you feeling for the point boost? 420? 430? More? Maybe even add a 5? That'd be one less Moloid but help him a bit in other builds.

[TrollBrute]

I think 6 Attack and 430 is a good place for another round of testing. Cost can then go up or down from there depending on results.

[johnny139]

I could swing 430. Any other thoughts before I make the change?

[Karat]

Sounds like a good place to move forward from.

[Viegon]

Seems like a smart change.

[johnny139]

Change made.

[johnny139]

Okay, so it looks like two absolute STOMPS here. Pluto was barely hurt in either game. He didn't do an extreme amount of damage, though, which makes me think that the Moloids might be the issue rather than Pluto himself...

Where do we go from here? I'm hesitant to remove the Moloid bonding, because it's easily the most fun to play that way, but it seems like a real tough one to balance. Any ideas?

Originally Posted by Zettian Juggernaut

Here you go, sorry it took so long:

[TrollBrute]

2 games is not always much to go one, but that's certainly not encouraging. I don't think raising his cost will do much unless we go quite a bit higher. Maybe bring his Defense or Life down by one? Doctor Doom is another ranged Ruler. Right now, Doom has better powers, but slightly weaker stats (1 less Life, Move, and Attack, 1 more Range). Doom also lacks the invulnerability to Range, and is 55 points cheaper.