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  #37  
Old December 23rd, 2008, 11:01 AM
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Re: The Book of Spider-Man

Quote:
Originally Posted by R˙chean View Post
Leaving engagement attack is not the same as an attack, so no.
As you say in your edit, they are both "attacks". The rules specifically refer to it as a "leaving engagement attack". Spidey's card refers to being "attacked" by an opposing figure and having a skull rolled. Not normal attack, not attacked on the opponents' turn, just attacked, period.

If I follow the zombie standard (i.e. a walking figure killed by a zombie's leaving engagement attack becomes a zombie on the space it moved ONTO) then Spidey gets a swing-line from the space he moved onto. Spidey then continues his walk from wherever he swings TO, with however much move he had left after the disengagement move.

I realize this is a bizarre effect, but this is what I get from reading the card.
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  #38  
Old December 23rd, 2008, 02:16 PM
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Re: The Book of Spider-Man

R˙chean is correct. Leaving engagement strikes do not trigger any special powers in the game. Not Spider sense, not ninja vanish, not scatter or any other special abilities that would be triggered by attacks.

I would ask you why you would even "walk" away from engagement with Spiderman and risk engagement strikes when you could swing line away and not take any such attacks?

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  #39  
Old December 23rd, 2008, 02:35 PM
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Re: The Book of Spider-Man

Quote:
Originally Posted by spidysox View Post
R˙chean is correct. Leaving engagement strikes do not trigger any special powers in the game. Not Spider sense, not ninja vanish, not scatter or any other special abilities that would be triggered by attacks.
Scatter (and counterstrike, and evil eye) specifically refer to normal attacks. Spider Sense refers to any attack where a skull is rolled. Clearly, that excludes things like Grimnak's chomp or Braxas's breath or a Nakita engagement strike, but do you have any reason to think that leaving engagement attacks are excluded? There's nothing on the card that suggests so.

(EDIT: Additionally, I'd point out one counter-example that is known to exist - the Microcorp Agents' Stealth Armor.)

Isamu and the Ninjas are, in fact, a good comparison, as the disappearing Ninja ability uses the exact same language as Spider Sense. However, Isamu and the Ninjas have phantom walk, so it's a moot point for them. Only Spider Man and Venom have this language and are eligible to receive leaving engagement attacks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by spidysox View Post
I would ask you why you would even "walk" away from engagement with Spiderman and risk engagement strikes when you could swing line away and not take any such attacks?
The obvious reason is that sometimes the difference between 4 move and 6 move is significant. Maybe it's the chance to reach Raelin in a single turn and finish him off before he flies to safety. Maybe it's needed to get the necessary distance between Spidey and an advancing Braxas. This could be even more significant if you're on a road, and it's the difference between 4 move and 9 move.

Plus, if spider-sense applies, it's only a 25% chance of a wound, plus the chance for bonus movement...

----

Just to be clear, I honestly think this is an oversight and should be corrected in errata. But I think that a literal reading of the card currently suggests that you get a spider sense roll, and a swing line move in the middle of your walk if your roll succeeds.

Last edited by dok; December 23rd, 2008 at 08:20 PM.
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  #40  
Old December 28th, 2008, 08:00 PM
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Re: The Book of Spider-Man

Leaving engagement attacks are not attacks, no matter how misleading the name may be. "Disengagement swipe" would have been a better term to use.
Stealth Armor specifically mentions wounds, which leaving engagement attacks do dish out.

Also, Raelin is female. I find it hard to believe you didn't notice this.

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  #41  
Old December 28th, 2008, 11:46 PM
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Re: The Book of Spider-Man

Quote:
Originally Posted by NecroBlade View Post
Leaving engagement attacks are not attacks, no matter how misleading the name may be. "Disengagement swipe" would have been a better term to use.
Sez who? I understand this objection, and it is a reasonable argument. But unless you can support this, either from the rules or in the FAQ, it seems artificial and not really justified. In that case, I would default to "do what the card says", and that means that I treat anything called an attack as an attack.

Elsewhere, in reference to things like Braxas's poisonous acid breath and Deadeye Dan's sniper rifle, we place great importance in the use (or non-use, as it were) of the word "attack". Why is this different?

So far, I still think we need to get official errata if this application of Spider Sense is considered undesireable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NecroBlade View Post
Stealth Armor specifically mentions wounds, which leaving engagement attacks do dish out.
Sure. I was just pointing out that there are special abilities that can be triggered by leaving engagement attacks. I could have just as easily pointed out Life Drain or Zombies Rise Again. I was just noting that spideysox made a blanket statement that isn't so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NecroBlade View Post
Also, Raelin is female. I find it hard to believe you didn't notice this.
Ach, sorry. I usually get Braxas right, and that's a much more subtle case...
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  #42  
Old December 29th, 2008, 09:46 AM
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Re: The Book of Spider-Man

You don't need an errata. Can you use the Omnicron Snipers' double skulls ability when making a leaving engagement attack? No. And that example has been brought up and answered before. If they were attacks, Kaemon Awa could Quick Release every time someone walked away from him. They're "disengagement swipes" with unfortunate naming on Hasbro's part.

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  #43  
Old December 29th, 2008, 11:20 AM
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Re: The Book of Spider-Man

Quote:
Originally Posted by NecroBlade View Post
You don't need an errata. Can you use the Omnicron Snipers' double skulls ability when making a leaving engagement attack? No. And that example has been brought up and answered before.
That's a reasonable argument (as is its sibling, the double attack argument), although it's hardly open-and-shut. Again, this hinges on the word "attack" not applying to leaving engagement attacks.

One strong argument for this in the rules as they stand is that the words "leaving engagement attack" are in quotes in the rules.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NecroBlade View Post
If they were attacks, Kaemon Awa could Quick Release every time someone walked away from him.
No, and unlike the deadly strike/shot case, that's not really a reasonable argument. The leaving engagement attack rules specifically lay out what sort of attack you get. You don't use the attack of the figure, nor do you use special attacks. You use one die. That's what the rules say.

Leaving engagement attacks aren't normal attacks or special attacks, and I'm not arguing that they are. I'm arguing that, as the rules are currently written, leaving engagement attacks are leaving engagement attacks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NecroBlade View Post
They're "disengagement swipes" with unfortunate naming on Hasbro's part.
Again, it's a reasonable argument, but if they have "unfortunate naming" then that can and should be corrected in errata.
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  #44  
Old December 29th, 2008, 05:46 PM
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Re: The Book of Spider-Man

And now for something completely different!

At first glance, I thought there wasn't much difference between Spidey's normal attack and his Web special attack (attack 4 vs. attack 3 and -1 defense). Thinking about it more, that's obviously not the case.

First of all, one is a normal attack and one is a special attack. It got me thinking , though. When would you use Spidey's normal attack versus his web attack?

I suppose any time you could get height and adjacency his normal attack (of 5) would be a good option but is it (statistically) better than 3 and a -1 defense to the defender? If not, why did they give Spiderman such a lame normal attack? I'm not a statistician (or maybe I'm just too lazy to think about it right now) so help a brother out!

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  #45  
Old December 29th, 2008, 07:39 PM
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Re: The Book of Spider-Man

Just for future reference for those who crawl this thread... I posted on the leaving engagement attacks issue in the FAQ forum, and Grungebob pretty clearly backed the accepted way of playing (i.e. leaving engagement attacks don't count as "attacks" for special powers). I still feel this should be added to the official FAQ for clarity's sake, but if everyone's on the same page it's a moot point.

As long as I'm here...

Quote:
Originally Posted by The B.I.V. View Post
At first glance, I thought there wasn't much difference between Spidey's normal attack and his Web special attack (attack 4 vs. attack 3 and -1 defense). Thinking about it more, that's obviously not the case.

First of all, one is a normal attack and one is a special attack. It got me thinking , though. When would you use Spidey's normal attack versus his web attack?

I suppose any time you could get height and adjacency his normal attack (of 5) would be a good option but is it (statistically) better than 3 and a -1 defense to the defender? If not, why did they give Spiderman such a lame normal attack? I'm not a statistician (or maybe I'm just too lazy to think about it right now) so help a brother out!
Sisyphus's Probability Tables are your friend...

The short answer is that, barring some tactical reason to avoid positioning yourself next to your opponent, and/or to avoid a normal attack, you should use spidey's normal attack. An attack of 4 (i.e. even without height advantage) trumps an attack of 3, even if the attack of 3 faces one fewer defense dice. The only exceptions are:
  1. If spidey can attack from the same or higher level with the web attack, but has to be on a lower level to attack with the normal attack. A gap of TWO defense dice trumps one extra attack die.
  2. Against figures with only 1 defense and 1 life. 3 attack against 0 defense has a higher probability of scoring one wound than 4 attack against 1 defense. So use web attack against un-boosted Ashigaru or Arrow Gruts, or Isamu.
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  #46  
Old December 29th, 2008, 10:45 PM
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Re: The Book of Spider-Man

The way I tend to think of Spidey's Web Special Attack is that the -1 defense effectively makes his attack equivalent to 3.5 dice.
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  #47  
Old December 29th, 2008, 11:04 PM
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Re: The Book of Spider-Man

Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
The only exceptions are:
  1. If spidey can attack from the same or higher level with the web attack, but has to be on a lower level to attack with the normal attack. A gap of TWO defense dice trumps one extra attack die.
  2. Against figures with only 1 defense and 1 life. 3 attack against 0 defense has a higher probability of scoring one wound than 4 attack against 1 defense. So use web attack against un-boosted Ashigaru or Arrow Gruts, or Isamu.
This is exactly right. The web attack is nice if you need to coax some melee unit off height to come and deal with you, or if you just can't quite reach the target with the normal attack.

The web attack is also kind of nice against Krav Maga Agents, where that extra defense die is a big deal. Of course, if you're adjacent, it's back to the normal attack.
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  #48  
Old December 30th, 2008, 12:10 PM
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Re: The Book of Spider-Man

Thanks, guys! That's been bugging me for a looooong time!

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