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View Poll Results: Why do you accept the proposition that a deity exists?
I know God through reason, science, etc. 3 8.11%
I accept God through belief or personal revelation 11 29.73%
Other 12 32.43%
I am an atheist but want to vote in this poll because polls are dope 11 29.73%
Voters: 37. You may not vote on this poll

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  #49  
Old May 21st, 2018, 12:19 PM
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Re: Food for Thought: A Discourse on Deities

Well, if I don't jump on the infinite monkeys train I don't think I could go on calling myself a self-respecting Goomonkey. To bring you the work of my near-infinite, less-gooey brethren, here is a link to the Library of Babel (which I would be surprised if I didn't mention on the last religion thread and am pretty sure I started a whole thread for when I first discovered it) (also, I realize that the term "near-infinite" means absolutely nothing, but when you're talking about 10^4677 books I think it is almost justified).

For a little background, the Library of Babel is a procedurally-generated online database containing every possible 3,200 character combination of the 26 English letters, spaces, periods, and commas (sometimes even oxford commas ).

If you want to delve to a very specific page that my monkey brothers typed up for you, go the the 200th page of the 18th book on the 5th shelf of the 2nd wall of this hex (click on browse and then copy and paste this to get to the hex, the search function found me this gem of a page):
Spoiler Alert!


I'm not entirely throwing out the "a painting has a painter, so the universe has to have a creator" argument by referencing this, by the way. While I don't know if there is a creator, and I certainly don't believe one way or the other, I do think that random chance can do wonders. There was someone who coded the Library, though, which would (I think) support Aldin's point here.

There is also someone who coded No Man's Sky, which is basically the Library of Babel in video game form. There are 18 quintillion planets in the game to fly around and explore, and there are animals on a bunch of the planets (a far higher percentage than we've noted in the "real" universe) and some of those animals and planets look pretty bad. So, even though there is definitely an intelligent designer to No Man's Sky, there are still some great design flaws in it, so one could argue that an intelligent creator of our universe could have used a similar method of design where not every single detail was ironed out, allowing for some the flaws JS mentioned even if there is a creator.

While I don't like to use the word god to describe the creative force in the universe, it seems fundamental to me that there is some sort of creative force in the universe. I prefer to think about this as that pool of consciousness we all draw from to make up our individual consciousnesses. That makes the universe and everything in it just a part of the "universal mind" that may extend beyond space and time and potentially make up other universes as well, or maybe each of those universes has its own universal mind that creates itself. In the end, I think I could easily call what I'm thinking of "god" but I think my use of the word consciousness is more accurate for what I believe.

~Dr.G, who has spent hours scrolling through the Library only to find nothing. He did find the word godgod once though, that was kinda neat.

P.S. As for the question of "why is there something instead of nothing?" I don't think this is answerable, kind of like most of the questions we're tackling on this thread. In the end, there is something, so we might as well enjoy it and be nice to it.

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Last edited by Dr.Goomonkey; May 21st, 2018 at 12:25 PM. Reason: That "something instead of nothing" question demanded some sort of response, right?
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  #50  
Old May 21st, 2018, 09:25 PM
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Re: Food for Thought: A Discourse on Deities

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Originally Posted by superfrog View Post
Interesting thought.

I will start off by saying that I'm a Christian, and a Reformed/Calvinistic one, if that means anything to you.

I think your issue is in Premise 3, but it could stem from some semantics in Premise 2.

In reformed theology, we speak of God having two "wills": one that he wants, and one that he actualizes. For example, God doesn't want anybody to be a murderer, but yet there are murderers.

So I would clarify Premise 2 by saying that God only "wills" for some to know him, although he "wants" all to know him.

Another thing the Bible says is that all humans know about God, but they suppress that knowledge (Romans 1). Obviously this is an inarguable point. No evidence can be offered in support or in opposition of this claim. But if we're accepting Biblical arguments for our premises, we can take this to mean that there is no "reasonable" doubt for the existence of God.

Hope I made some sense there.
Been a while since I posted on here, since I had a rather bad experience on here a a couple years back, but I completely agree here, I'm also a reformed Christian. God wants all to be saved, but He is also just. He can't just let sin go. Also, some comforting knowledge to me - "No one will wind up in Hell that doesn't deserve to be there." A quote by John Piper, which I believe to be true.

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  #51  
Old May 21st, 2018, 09:39 PM
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Re: Food for Thought: A Discourse on Deities

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Originally Posted by Tornado View Post
I appreciate you trying. Thank you.

You do not find it odd that God was able to create the entire universe but was only able to make his word be known through one man in one location after centuries of mankind having no word to follow?

Why was Adam not given the Bible right from the get go and then everyone would have known the word of God right from the start?
That seems a lot easier than waiting centuries for the tribes of man to spread across the land and then try to get the word out through a single mouth.
I think the reason God allowed humans to go down the path they did, (i.e. sin, Eve to be tempted, etc...) was ultimately, to show His incredible love for us, in sacrificing the thing He loved most: His Son. And frankly, I find that to be amazing, and worthy of worship.

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  #52  
Old May 21st, 2018, 09:44 PM
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Re: Food for Thought: A Discourse on Deities

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Originally Posted by ollie View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Sweeney View Post
... and I'm left with the nihilism that is atheism.
Atheism doesn't imply nihilism.
I believe it does. If ultimately there is no hope of life after death, then why is life worth living, in the long run? No matter what you do or accomplish, or feel, etc...You still wind up dead.

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  #53  
Old May 21st, 2018, 09:55 PM
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Re: Food for Thought: A Discourse on Deities

Do homosexuals deserve to be in Hell, Owlman? Just how "reformed" are you?

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  #54  
Old May 22nd, 2018, 10:00 AM
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Re: Food for Thought: A Discourse on Deities

@Aldin


Quote:
Ergo, we must choose what we believe about those beginnings.
No, no we don't.

See, this is where my argument stems from. I don't need to choose an argument for the beginning of the universe yet. I am waiting on evidence of some kind to sway me one way or the other.

If one were to ask me, "how did the universe begin in its present form?" I would shrug my shoulders and say that we don't quite know yet. But the universe in its present form is not evidence for god. Or rather, it is not evidence for just god. It's evidence for practically anything if you are willing to try hard enough and apply a confirmation bias.

Now, I can rule out several versions of a deity, just as I can rule out the existence of an object that is square while simultaneously being circular. Which is what I do for the god of the Bible in the proof at the beginning of the thread.

Additionally, you are straw-manning my argument. My argument doesn't break down to "incredibly unlikely snowflake." Rather, my argument states that given our current universe, it seems quite likely. There are around 100 billion galaxies in the universe, with billions of solar systems and trillions of plants. Since certain environments are hospital to life, it seems very likely that there should arise (a) planet(s) in which life could prosper.

Now what my argument does say is, even *if* our universe being configured as it was today were incredibly unlikely, that doesn't mean anything really. Because something did have to happen, and thus our universe is just as likely as any other single example, as far as we know. And even if that weren't the case, that is not to say any other universe couldn't give rise to life, let alone human life all over again.

How life came to be, I have no guess. But individuals in the field of abiogenesis are making strides in that direction (we found out how amino acids can arise from electricity).

Anyway, the argument from design seems wholly irrelevant, because the design, in many cases, sucks. Millions of species have gone extinct since life began, many attributes in animals demonstrate a poor quality in "design" and have the appearance of randomness. What kind of design is this? Let alone intelligent, not to mention all-knowing?

Finding a rock that is perfect for skipping among billions of rocks that are not ideal for skipping seems more likely than the mixer analogy, but I digress.

Quote:
You asked for God to provide evidence that He exists. I'm saying that it's right there and you are choosing to interpret it to mean something else.
It is also evidence for just about anything else. Observe: due to the evident randomness that permeates throughout our universe, I conclude that this is evidence that an immortal, timeless, insubstantial die is forever being cast by six timeless, immortal, insubstantial gamblers who assigned attributes of the universe at random to each side of the die.

In your own words, if I may, Aldin, "And I say that is sufficient evidence for those who choose to believe in [the six gamblers] to rationally do so. I don't need to prove it it the ONLY rational thing to do.... I'm saying that it's right there and you are choosing to interpret it to mean something else."

One thing striking about both your claim towards your deity, and mine towards the six gamblers is that they both remain unfalsifiable.

You're choosing to apply your view of reality to what is more or less an unsubstantiated claim. I am saying, "Let's put the breaks on for a second here. There may be an intelligent designer, but he isn't the one you're choosing. It also may just be something else, let's wait and see."

What strikes me though, is that you suggest that you do not need to prove that god is the only rational course of belief. Then I ask you, if you cannot prove this claim, which seems to be the case, otherwise I assume you would, how on earth do you expect to invalidate premise for of the argument from non-belief? And if one cannot demonstrate that god existing is the only rational belief, then rational disbelief does exist, ergo () the conclusion follows naturally from the premises, and one of those options provided must be selected.

@Dr.Goomonkey

Quote:
So, even though there is definitely an intelligent designer to No Man's Sky, there are still some great design flaws in it, so one could argue that an intelligent creator of our universe could have used a similar method of design where not every single detail was ironed out, allowing for some the flaws JS mentioned even if there is a creator.
But not an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevelonet designer. And if he lacks one of these attributes, then, in the words of Epicurus, "Why call him God?"

~JS, who randomly has a Delta commercial stuck in his head
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  #55  
Old May 22nd, 2018, 10:58 AM
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Re: Food for Thought: A Discourse on Deities

If you have a premise looks something like this,
This existence is the only possible one.
. . . then it is a trifling matter to paint a target around us, and call the universe the product of a bullseye by, to paraphrase the good doctor, some "creative force." It is the
Texas sharpshooter fallacy Texas sharpshooter fallacy
, by comparing the real world to an imagined one, and drawing conclusions from how similar the two are.

The Library of Babel exercise surely demonstrates that you cannot meaningfully (by "meaningfully" I mean, within reasonable constraints of time and energy) "brute force" the creation of literature the same way you can break a 12-character password, but I can prove that, given enough time, a computer would discover a 47-word sentence that makes perfect sense. How do I know it? I just wrote one. It's made of alpha-numeric characters, therefore, eventually a computer would find it.

Regardless, taking the Library of Babel experiment a step further, imagine an alien civilization that uses an alphabet like ours, but does not use our language. Why shouldn't that alien civilization look at our own Library of Babel, and find a familiar sacred text within it? Just because it's nonsense to *us* doesn't mean that it's proof that no sense can be made out of it.

And does that possibility mean, perhaps, that there is a creative force that is annoyed at us because of our failure to develop language in a way that allows us to read those pages of nonsense? Isn't that just as likely as demonstrating the existence of a creative force that made the universe as it is, proven by the randomness of this string of characters?

Last point, for now, on the subject of the Library of Babel. Language obeys rules, just as the natural world obeys rules. Gravity, magnetism, and so on. The rules of language impose a certain familiar structure on the written word, such that even if I don't understand Russian I can see it on a page and recognize it as a language, or a facsimile of one. The Library of Babel, conversely, is a random string of characters, not obedient to the rules of a language. It looks like nonsense on the page (to us) because it is not obedient to the rules that any written language has.

Similarly, the natural world is obedient to certain rules, which you will not find in a string of truly random data (or characters). Our universe exists, as I see it, because of (1) time, and (2) physics. Am I such a master of physics that I could explain where it comes from and why it is? No, of course not. My life has been devoted to the study of other things, and I imagine you all would say the same. But I don't throw my hands up in the air and say "it must be divine power."

I don't understand the inner workings of my own body, really, either, so I go to an expert when I need a doctor. I don't throw my hands up in despair and say that the pain in my abdomen is evidence of a higher power. Science (medicine, in this case) has an answer for me, and I can either accept the presentation of one or more experts on the subject, or I can devote time and energy to understanding for myself what I did not understand when I first experienced it.

Penultimately, this post should not be read to be an attack on the possible existence of a divine being. I've always written in these threads that you should decide what you want and go for it. There's nothing in the natural world proving there isn't a god, after all. Owlman's signature block is a dig on something I championed a long time ago, which is that people shouldn't have religion or politics in their signature blocks. The admins rejected my request for such a rule, which was fine & up to them, but my point was that we should not be pushing dogma on each other, and I am not trying to push any on you.

The Flying Spaghetti Monster in my own signature block is a wry reference to a satire religion defined by having no dogma, which is my gentle rebuke to those who would proselytize on these pages with advertisements in avatars or signature blocks. You do you, gentle reader, but keep your judgment and your sales pitch to yourself. We are all friends here, but we are not such good friends that we want - with threads like this excepted - to wave politics and religion in each other's faces. It's just bad manners in public, as your grandmother taught you.

Finally, I wholeheartedly reject the idea that there is something less wondrous about this universe if I accept that we are here for a short time, then we die and we're gone, and there is no Guiding Hand setting this up for us as a banquet. Just the opposite, if this is the one life we have, and it was not given to us as a gift but is something we are just lucky to have, and if there are no Guiding Hands but our own, I think that is a truly wondrous thing. Of course, an omnipotent, etc. god is also a wondrous thing, in a different way, but kindly don't talk down to non-believers as if they don't appreciate how wonderful the world is because they reject the existence of your God.

Sorry for the long post. This is what I didn't want to write before but now I've written it.

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Last edited by Dad_Scaper; May 22nd, 2018 at 11:50 AM. Reason: a few words
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  #56  
Old May 22nd, 2018, 11:03 AM
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Re: Food for Thought: A Discourse on Deities

@JS First and Foremost - I am annoyed that you have a two word user name and therefore seem not to be "at"-able in the sense that looking back at my previous post appears to have notified joseph as opposed to you.

...

Man, my first shot at responding to this was utterly unreadable.

Do you believe that it is possible for a rational person not to believe evidence you find compelling?

~Aldin, wonderingly

He either fears his fate too much
or his desserts are small
That dares not put it to the touch
to gain or lose it all
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Last edited by Aldin; May 22nd, 2018 at 11:42 AM. Reason: mentionable
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  #57  
Old May 22nd, 2018, 11:06 AM
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Re: Food for Thought: A Discourse on Deities

You mean like this? @Joseph Sweeney Or even like this? @JS


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  #58  
Old May 22nd, 2018, 11:16 AM
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Re: Food for Thought: A Discourse on Deities

@Dad_Scaper - I hate you Thank you so much!

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Old May 22nd, 2018, 11:44 AM
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Re: Food for Thought: A Discourse on Deities

It's always good to see you around, Aldin. I'm glad I could teach an old dog* new tricks.

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Old May 22nd, 2018, 12:42 PM
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Re: Food for Thought: A Discourse on Deities

Quote:
Originally Posted by Owlman View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ollie View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Sweeney View Post
... and I'm left with the nihilism that is atheism.
Atheism doesn't imply nihilism.
I believe it does. If ultimately there is no hope of life after death, then why is life worth living, in the long run? No matter what you do or accomplish, or feel, etc...You still wind up dead.
To give an alternative to my earlier response to Joseph and DS's take on the matter, let's think about what /your/ point of view implies.

If winding up dead renders any accomplishment pointless, presumably in a universe with a god that looks at somewhat like your version of the Christian one, anything that doesn't improve your standing on the Great Big Scoreboard that determines entry to heaven is equally pointless.

Does everything you do improve your standing on the scoreboard? Assuming not (playing Heroscape, for example) why do you choose to do it?

FWIW, I find the philosophy that the only reason to be kind, say, is to help with passing the entry exam for heaven a much less appealing approach to life than that of those of us (which I'd guess is most of us, whether religious or not) who see value in kindness for its own sake. Do you think kindness is intrinsicaly worthwhile? If so, how do you square that with the view that atheism implies nihilism?
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