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  #313  
Old October 4th, 2016, 09:38 PM
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Re: Decision 2016

I'm not watching it at the moment, and I might tune in, but it's going to be hard for anything to beat this as my favorite moment from it.

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  #314  
Old October 4th, 2016, 09:57 PM
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Re: Decision 2016

A couple things I think so far.
It is rather cringe-worthy to watch Pence attempt to defend Trump's comments.
Pence is being much more respectful of Kaine's time than vice-versa. That is, Kaine loves talking over Pence.

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  #315  
Old October 4th, 2016, 10:34 PM
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Re: Decision 2016

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nukatha View Post
A couple things I think so far.
It is rather cringe-worthy to watch Pence attempt to defend Trump's comments.
Pence is being much more respectful of Kaine's time than vice-versa. That is, Kaine loves talking over Pence.
I think Pence's politics are absolutely vile. He seems like a decent guy, though, otherwise. Unlike his running mate.

I'm glad to see Kaine a little feisty. I didn't know he had it in him. He's very graceful about steamrolling Pence, to his credit.

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  #316  
Old October 5th, 2016, 10:52 AM
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Re: Decision 2016

I plan to watch it on youtube if possible soon. That's how I take in most of the debates.

I'll echo DS yet again that I think at least Pence and Kaine are good people. I can't stand Pence's policies either though. Between cancelling needle exchange programs in his state and causing public health issues like increased spread of HIV to actually signing the stupid RFRA garbage, even if he later softened his stance on it....the man clearly pushes his morality onto others at the cost of public health or individual's rights. Not someone that I want in charge at all.

As a secularist also, I tend not to really like politicians who describe themselves as a Christian first as Pence is often quoted as stating. Almost always means they support laws that support "religious freedom" or "protect" Christians as if they are somehow under attack legally and losing rights. Given that this is clearly not the case, and instead most religious freedom laws really mean discrimination against LGBT individuals like myself, I tend to be wary of any politician who thinks his faith is the most important factor in his professional life, when in fact it shouldn't be a matter at all.

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  #317  
Old October 5th, 2016, 02:27 PM
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Re: Decision 2016

As a matter of political discourse, last night was a disaster. It was considerably less coherent and harder to make sense of than the presidential debate. The moderator did a pretty poor job in my opinion by constantly jumping from topic to topic and not asking appropriate follow-ups. The two debaters themselves did her no favors by constantly exceeding time and talking over her and frequently ignoring the questions. With rare exception, what was stated was mostly a re-hash of known talking points.

As a matter of political theater, I thought Pence came off much better than Kaine. Pence's experience in live radio came through, as he appeared pretty unflappable while Kaine appeared kind of manic at times. I don't think this stuff matters much (at the end of the day, nobody cares about the personalities of the VPs) but it will lead to most pundits declaring Pence the winner.

As a matter of political impact, I think the Democrats did slightly better, only because Pence's main defense mechanism was to repeatedly deny that Trump had said things that he has definitely said. Fact checks on those denials might get a lot of air time on the news for the next few days.
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  #318  
Old October 6th, 2016, 02:59 PM
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Re: Decision 2016

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ranior View Post
I'll echo DS yet again that I think at least Pence and Kaine are good people.
So, I guess that you think that either Clinton or Trump are not "good people". I wrote this a while back, and I'll write it again, that we should try not to demonize people that we don't agree with or canonize people that we agree with. I tend to be socially liberal and fiscally conservative, so I'm not a big fan of Bernie Sanders (on the fiscal side of things). Still, I have no problem acknowledging that Bernie believes that a more socialist government would be a good thing. This means that we have a difference of opinion, not that one of us isn't a good person.

In this election, I'm not thrilled with either candidate, but I think that they both want what's best for the US. Perhaps that makes me na´ve, but that's how I feel.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
As a matter of political discourse, last night was a disaster. It was considerably less coherent and harder to make sense of than the presidential debate. The moderator did a pretty poor job in my opinion by constantly jumping from topic to topic and not asking appropriate follow-ups. The two debaters themselves did her no favors by constantly exceeding time and talking over her and frequently ignoring the questions. With rare exception, what was stated was mostly a re-hash of known talking points.

As a matter of political theater, I thought Pence came off much better than Kaine. Pence's experience in live radio came through, as he appeared pretty unflappable while Kaine appeared kind of manic at times. I don't think this stuff matters much (at the end of the day, nobody cares about the personalities of the VPs) but it will lead to most pundits declaring Pence the winner.

As a matter of political impact, I think the Democrats did slightly better, only because Pence's main defense mechanism was to repeatedly deny that Trump had said things that he has definitely said. Fact checks on those denials might get a lot of air time on the news for the next few days.
Kaine seemed a bit unhinged. I understand that Kaine is typically a very polite debater, so he may have been sent out to aggressively attack the other side (which is typically what a VP is asked to do). Pence came across as presidential. I think that he helped himself more for a possible run at the 2020 election than he did for Trump in the 2016 election. He couldn't defend what Trump said, and didn't even try. He looked great compared to Kaine. Having said that, no one pays attention to the VP debate.
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  #319  
Old October 6th, 2016, 03:26 PM
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Re: Decision 2016

I believe that Kaine did exactly what he was sent out to do, which was not (simply) to be aggressive, but to needle Pence into responding to things that Trump had said. That was a lose/lose proposition for Pence, and set up the Clinton campaign very nicely:
Spoiler Alert!


Kaine wasn't trying to attack just to be an attacker, nor was he trying to win by being calm and presidential. I believe his approach was to force Pence to say things in response to things Trump had said, because that was a lose/lose proposition for Pence and for the Trump campaign. To the extent that Kaine may have "lost" the debate, by some measures, with that behavior, I believe his goal was not to win the proverbial battle, but to win the proverbial war.

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  #320  
Old October 6th, 2016, 03:34 PM
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Re: Decision 2016

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich10 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ranior View Post
I'll echo DS yet again that I think at least Pence and Kaine are good people.
So, I guess that you think that either Clinton or Trump are not "good people". I wrote this a while back, and I'll write it again, that we should try not to demonize people that we don't agree with or canonize people that we agree with. I tend to be socially liberal and fiscally conservative, so I'm not a big fan of Bernie Sanders (on the fiscal side of things). Still, I have no problem acknowledging that Bernie believes that a more socialist government would be a good thing. This means that we have a difference of opinion, not that one of us isn't a good person.

In this election, I'm not thrilled with either candidate, but I think that they both want what's best for the US. Perhaps that makes me na´ve, but that's how I feel.
I pretty much wholly agree with you. I specifically think that Trump is not a good person though. I will get to that in a bit.

In general, I think the vast majority of politicians truly are trying their best to do good for their country and uphold acceptable ethics under increasing demands from their party to fund-raise, fund raise, fund raise. I think there is a big problem in this country with both sides needlessly demonizing the other. We can work together, and most politicians are good people we can work with. Democrats and Republicans don't need to be at each others throats and act like the other are a bunch of degenerates that we can't work with. That's an awful line of thought and just adds to the hyper partisanship that is being witnessed. It is a real issue that needs to be overcome. I'm pretty young, and so only really have paid attention to election in 08 and 12, and in both of those I personally have respect for John MicCain (quite a lot actually) and Mitt Romney (moderately so). I think they are both nice guys who work very hard for their country. I think McCain does an excellent job overall to be honest and would not have been that sad to see him win. (Palin on the other hand....well yeah). Romney is a politician who I actually think was pretty good too but felt excessive need to bend to some of the tea party sentiment and took more hard line stances on many things than he truly would have while governing. Either way they both were fine candidates and good people. I disagree with many of Paul Ryan's policies, but I generally respect him and think he is fairly rationale and is trying to do a good job and is a good person. There's probably a bit of me that likes him a bit just because he's a fellow wisconsinite.

Donald Trump is different though. I've tried to make it clear from the above that I absolutely agree with you that we excessively demonize the other party and the political environment in American needs to shift. But sometimes the general rule doesn't apply to specific cases, and this is one of those. I do not think Donald Trump is a good person. I think he may well think he is doing what is best for the country, but that doesn't tell the whole story if someone is actually a good person. I think Trump has a documented history of narcissism, bigotry, and questionable ethics. I think it is quite telling that him and his family seem incapable of understanding that there is a significant issue with Trump's plan to just turn over his business holdings to his family members instead of a true nuetral party/board of directors/etc. The fact they do not seem to understand this, even when pressed gives me worry. The fact that Trump has many cases of questionable ethics between making donations to an Attorney General who was looking into prosecuting him, to using charitable foundation's money to purchase portraits of himself that he displays at his own properties, or that he uses those funds to pay lawsuits against his business shows a real lack of ethics. The man is not someone to be respected. I don't think he is ethical.

Perhaps you and I simply mean different things by good people though. If your sole definition is that the person does what they think is right, then I'd agree Trump does do what he thinks is right. My issue is that he really should know better, and has likely been advised plenty of that fact. The man has many flaws that he could work on fixing or at least admit he has flubbed or made mistakes, but he doesn't. When he throws out statements like Clinton/Obama founded ISIS and later claims he was kidding....please. The man spews vitriol and doesn't even apologize for it. He cannot admit to wrongdoing. He doesn't try to change or improve his behavior. He thinks he does no wrong. These are not the traits of someone who deserves respect or someone I would call a good person.

I hope that makes things clearer. In general, I absolutely agree with you. In the specific case of Trump at least, I will disagree. I don't think he is a good person and I think his character deserves the scrutiny for above anything else, I think it is his character and the way he comports himself that most disqualify him from being the next president.

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  #321  
Old October 6th, 2016, 04:01 PM
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Re: Decision 2016

Trump's behavior is very much like that of a couple of other managers I've encountered, in that it is consistent with clinical narcissism. In my experience, those people do not put the mission first. They feed the beast first, and the mission suffers and can ultimately be crippled.

I'm not trying to demonize him when I say that. Heaven knows there have been politicians in the past who I thought were dangerously wrong but would not describe in a similar tone. It's just my sense. I'm no professional and even if I were, it would be inappropriate for me to diagnose him from a distance. But I can say that his behavior is consistent with the behavior of people I've known a little better, who I believe are pathological narcissists. And the behavior is consistent. There's been some coverage of the issue. Here is an article that fleshes out the subject a bit.

I didn't support George W. Bush, but I am (and was) confident that he would be very capable of being a responsible manager of other people, in the right context. By all accounts he treats people well and I wish him the best. I am sure that he wanted, in his way, to be a good servant to the American people.

Trump, though? When he went after Rubio for talking about his hands, when he went after a gold star family because of a 10-minute speech at the Democratic convention, he's showing behavior consistent with (to my mind) pathological narcissism. And those guys are dangerous. I wouldn't want him managing my local bank branch; I wouldn't want him managing my local library; I wouldn't even want him mowing my lawn. I wouldn't want to meet him on a dark alley or on a sunny street corner.

It's not my area of expertise and I am not offering a diagnosis. I am, however, observing that he reminds me of a couple very unusual people I've encountered, in a way that I find deeply troubling.

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  #322  
Old October 6th, 2016, 04:05 PM
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Re: Decision 2016

Yeah, I think there's an abundance of evidence that Trump is a fundamentally selfish, narcissistic person who is more interested in feeding his own ego than anything else. I would agree with the premise @Rich10 puts forth with respect to every other major party candidate of my lifetime. Even the ones I disagreed with strongly seemed like they had a core of sincerely held political beliefs that they wanted to have become public policy over the views of their opponent.

I don't get that sense from Trump at all. I don't think he really had any issue with Clinton's policies per se before he contemplated a run, nor do I think he had or has much in the way of sincerely held core principles of his own. He's just a guy who wants to be president. Again, this is not something I would have said about any other major party candidate in my lifetime.

Remember this story? I always thought it was an absurd thing to suggest, but I kinda do feel that way this fall.
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  #323  
Old October 6th, 2016, 04:25 PM
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Re: Decision 2016

Most of the time, I try to stay out of these things, but I have stronger negative feelings about Trump than I can recall having about any other candidate for US president in my life. It doesn't pay to rehash the negatives that have already been recounted, but I agree with another's assessment he's a malignantly selfish, ignorant, petty child in a man's body.

If in some alternate reality, I were tasked with appointing the president and I could choose between either Trump or selecting a random American for president than I would rather roll the dice and see what we get. The chances are decent that the selected person would be sufficiently in awe of the responsibility they suddenly find themselves with that they would listen to the advisors that tend to accompany such an office.

History will not judge us well if we elect Trump president.

I just had to get that off my chest.

~xorlof, back to lurking in this thread.

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  #324  
Old October 6th, 2016, 06:03 PM
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Re: Decision 2016

Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
I don't get that sense from Trump at all. I don't think he really had any issue with Clinton's policies per se before he contemplated a run, nor do I think he had or has much in the way of sincerely held core principles of his own. He's just a guy who wants to be president. Again, this is not something I would have said about any other major party candidate in my lifetime.

Remember this story? I always thought it was an absurd thing to suggest, but I kinda do feel that way this fall.
Well, that got quite a response. Lets see if I can address my observations on Trump.

Do I believe that he's a narcissist? Yes, (and this is a huge deal) but I don't know how to determine if it is "clinical".

Trump has shown very questionable ethics (but I don't think he's alone in this election on this issue).

Is he a bigot? I don't know, but I have met an African-American woman who works for Trump and she says Trump treats all people equally (tough, fair, and politically incorrect). She is voting for Trump. I have never met Trump.

Is he a womanizer? Ahem, lets move on although many of our presidents would fail this.

I don't know if this was addressed, but I think that he's a compulsive liar.

To me, the tax issue is a non-issue. So long as he followed the tax rules, I don't really care how much tax he paid or didn't pay. I still think he should release his tax returns.

Instead of commenting on whether he's a good person, I meant to say that I believe that Trump feels that his policies would be best for this country. But which policies does he really care about? I think that he believes most fervently in the immigration issue and on renegotiating trade deals. If anyone is interested, his immigration position seems to come straight from Ann Coulter's book, "Adios America".

I'm not sure of any other position that he has that he has spoken with conviction on. Lower taxes is a Republican staple, and I agree with his proposal to lower corporate taxes (to prevent more US companies moving to tax havens). Unfortunately, he hasn't agreed to raise the personal rate as an offset.

He's taken a pro life stand, but this may be a Republican litmus test. He has expressed moderate views on transgender issues.

As I think about this, I'm not sure what many of Trump's positions are because they just don't matter. To me, he fails the most important test of whether I would be willing to make him the commander in chief of this country. But he does seem supremely convinced that his reign (not sure what else to call it) would make America great again largely on the basis of his personal brilliance.

Dok, to your last point, I'd take Obama or Bush over Clinton or Trump. Given the choices I have, I'll vote Clinton.
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