Proposed Knockback Rules

[IAmBatman]

I know there's a lot of interest in this around here, and I was thinking of it this morning, so here are my proposed house "Rules for Knockback". I'd like to hear from people around here and see if we can't get a community consensus on this type of thing. I think it'd be fun to start compiling this, destructible objects, scenarios, our TNT (tried and true) customs, scenario and equipment glyphs (with pick up and dropping rules), and so on into a sort of widely accepted, "advanced" version of Marvelscape.
That said, here are my ideas for Knockback rules.

Rules for Knockback
When figures with Superstrength (indicated by the "S" symbol at the bottom of a unit's Army Card) attack, it may result in Knockback.
Knockback on figures without Superstrength
When a figure with Superstrength wounds a figure without Superstrength with a normal attack, the wounded figure should move two spaces for every wound in a straight line away from the attacking figure.
Knockback on figures with Superstrength
When a figure with Superstrength wounds another figure with Superstrength with a normal attack, the wounded figure should move one space for every wound in a straight line away from the attacking figure.
Additional Knockback Rules for All Figures
If any figure would be affected by Knockedback this turn, the figure's controller that caused the Knockback controls the path of the Knockback. If more than one figure is affected by Knockback by a single attack, choose the order in which they are affected. If the Knockback would cause the figure to go down elevation, roll for falling damage accordingly. If the figure would hit a higher elevation, move the figure up onto the level as long as it is lower than the figure's height and continue with the Knockback. If the elevation is equal to or higher than the figure's height, including from Line of Sight blockers (such as ruins) the figure slams into the wall and the player controlling the affected figure should roll one attack die for damage. If the affected figure would hit another figure, the Knockback is stopped and each figure's controlling player rolls one attack die for damage. Figures affected by Knockback never take leaving engagement attacks.
Knockback and Double Spaced Figures
Double spaced figures moved by Knockback must be placed on two same level spaces, even if one space must be subtracted from their Knockback move.

edit: I added in some changes due to the great feedback so far. Is it looking better? Anything I'm still missing?

[johnny139]

That looks good. But there are a few problems. Why are flying figures not affected? If Hulk punches Iron Man in the face, he's going to go back. How are elevation changed made? Wouldn't a figure not be able to go back any further once they hit a certain height?

[IAmBatman]

I'm not sure what you mean about height - but I did mean to put something in there about them stopping their Knockback move if they run into any obstacles (i.e. can't knock someone back through a ruin.) Not sure the best way to word that, though.
And you're probably right about the flying stipulation, I just figured it'd be an easy way for flying figures to not have to worry about falling damage, since it doesn't seem like they'd take any in that situation. I could always put that in the rules instead, though. It does seem like Hulk should be able to sock Iron Man like that, yes.

[netherspirit]

These are Knockback rules that I came up with a LOOOOONG time ago, after I first started playing. This was for a custom unit that I made, one of my first. They might help you...

If any figure would be knocked-back this turn, the figure's controller that caused the knock-back controls the path of the knock-back. If more than one figure is knocked-back by a single attack, choose the order in which they are knocked-back. Knocked-back figures do not take any leaving engagement strikes along the way. If the knock-back would cause the figure to go down elevation, roll for falling damage accordingly. If the figure would hit a higher elevation, move them up onto the level as long as it is lower than their height and continue with the knock-back. If the elevation is equal to or higher than the figure's height, they slam into the wall and roll one attack die for damage. If the knocked back figure would hit another figure, the knock-back is stopped and each figure rolls one attack die for damage.

I think what Johnny was talking about is what happens with a figure is getting knocked back and he runs into a change in elevation.

[MacG]

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

I know there's a lot of interest in this around here, and I was thinking of it this morning, so here are my proposed house "Rules for Knockback". I'd like to hear from people around here and see if we can't get a community consensus on this type of thing.

You need to think through a couple of things we've struggled with in our own homebrew knockback.

1) Two-space figures. How does that work? You could easily leave a figure in an illegal position with one foot on the cliff and the other off. What happens then?

2) knockback up. What if you get knocked back and the elevation goes up? Can you get knocked UP a stairs or gentle slope? How about getting knocked UP onto a cliff? Do you take damage?

3) knockback into things. What if you run into another figure? A wall? Who, if any, takes damage?

Johnny - it's to match the (asinine IMHO) decision that the designers made that a flying figure can't be thrown. I still argue that a flier thrown out of their control will still hit the ground painfully more often than not. Trying to recover in midflight might just make things worse. I personally would allow knockback to fliers as well.

[IAmBatman]

Great stuff Nether and great questions, MacG.
I'm going to pretty much wholecloth include what you have there in the rules in my first post, Nether (edit coming soon).
I'll also include a rule about two spaced figures needing to end the Knockback on two same level spaces, MacG.
And finally, due to popular demand, I'll nix the flying stipulation.

[Firemaster]

They look good, but I think you should put in that only melee attacks activate knockback. I can't really think of many ranged attacks, other than maybe Cyclops' Optic Beam that would knock the enemy back.

[GreyOwl]

I agree on removing the stipulation against flying figures. After all, how many times has Superman been knocked back through a building?

Here are the House Rules we've been using for knockback, in case that spurs some ideas. It takes into accoun the height of the figures. But after reading some of the questions above, I realize it doesn't address most of them.

"Instead of a normal attack, you may declare that you are attempting to knock a figure back. To attempt, you must not be adjacent to the target figure, and must have enough movement points to land on the space occupied by the target figure. Each figure then rolls the number of attack dice equivalent to their height, with the attacker getting one additional die. The attacking figure may receive 1 additional attack die if it uses it uses all of its movement points in a straight line, with no upward change in elevation, leading up to the attack. Each figure also receives appropriate bonuses for any height advantage. If the attacker rolls 1 – 3 skulls that are unblocked, the defender is moved back 1 space. If 4 or more skulls are unblocked, the defender moves back 2 spaces. All falling damage applies. If successful, the attacking figures ends on the space previously occupied by the target figure. If not successful, your figure ends up adjacent to the target figure."

[allskulls]

Here's what I've come up with (with an big assist from Rydderch)...

Originally Posted by Knock Back

After attacking an enemy figure, if the defending figure receives at least 1 wound, the attacker may move the defending figure an amount of spaces equal to the number of skulls rolled minus 3. When moving a figure suffering from knock back, each movement space must increase the distance between the attacking figure and defending figure. Figures with the Super Strength power add 1 to knock back distance when attacking an adjacent figure and subtract 1 when defending against any figure.

This version will allow all figures to knock back another if at least 4 skulls are rolled. I blasted Hulk with Cyclops rolling 8 dice (Full Blast) and got 7 skulls…Hulk took 6 wounds but just stood there. Would have been cool to see him go flying back then come back very mad. Also SS characters won't get too much of a bonus that they were not costed for. But they do get a +1 bonus that allows them to KB a figure with a roll of only 3 skulls and gets KBed 1 less space (that part may need to be reworded).

The movement is simple. Just move the figure normally counting levels if needed. No smashing into walls damage here but falling damage will apply.

One thing about Knockback and customs I don't want to do is start making KB oriented abilities. This should be considered a rules varient and our customs should work well without it. That said, I do have an ability on Blob called Immovable that disallows movement from the result of an enemy's attack or special ability.

[GreyOwl]

I think it would be okay to have knockback effects in special abilities, as long as they're not tied to any specific rules and can stand on their own as printed on the card. For example, the Super Breath that IAmBatman is considering for his Superman custom. I think that would work well without needing knowledge of any custom rules. I've been working on something similar (though much less powerful) for Iron Man's Repulsor Beams.

[allskulls]

Originally Posted by GreyOwl

I think it would be okay to have knockback effects in special abilities, as long as they're not tied to any specific rules and can stand on their own as printed on the card. For example, the Super Breath that IAmBatman is considering for his Superman custom. I think that would work well without needing knowledge of any custom rules. I've been working on something similar (though much less powerful) for Iron Man's Repulsor Beams.

Agreed. I just meant stuff like "This figure never suffers from KB", "When this figure causes KB he may move X spaces", etc. If the ability has the KB effect within its text then it's cool.

[IAmBatman]

I think with things like Super Breath it's just something that has a similar effect, it's not necessarily Knockback itself.
That said, I agree that KB is something that should be covered in the unofficial "rules" section alone, and shouldn't be cropping up on tons of cards.
You make a good point about not adding in too much of a bonus to Superstrength that they weren't costed for. I did want to add at least somewhat of a bonus, though, to increase their Superstrength flavor, and I think the +1 route you suggest may be the way to go.
Why nothing for smashing into a wall? I thought Nether's rules handled that nicely and made a lot of sense. Unless KB is going to send you flying way up into the air, you're not clearing any elevation above your height, which means you're getting stuck, which means you're possibly getting hurt, IMO (and 1 die roll worth of damage isn't too awful).
I'm not sure about allowing KB on special attacks. I understand how it'd make sense for Cyclops, but I put the "normal attacks" criteria in there, b/c a lot of Special Attacks won't really have a knockback value to them, whether they involve bullets or fireline, or what not. I'm actually wondering if it shouldn't be adjacent only as well - so that someone's not just firing a pistol and causing KB.
I also wonder if the version you cooked up with Rydderch doesn't almost create too much KB. I like KB, but I'm not sure I want to see it happen every time a figure is hit. That's why I had the spaces coincide with wounds like I had it. Also, less math my way, which I always like.
Oh, I'm a big fan of the stipulation that each space of movement has to increase the distance between you and the figure affected by KB - this stops potential abuses of people circling the figure around you just to get falling damage or a lava tile or something crappy like that.