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  #2377  
Old May 26th, 2018, 02:44 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Could be an autocorrect issue. I just wanted to make sure that your point was clear, because I 100% agree with that assessment.

I like the mini as an Einar Kyrie. How could we not? I would much rather see it developed as a standalone Kyrie hero, though. Forget about synergy with the Einar Imperium. Make a cool hero that stands on his own two feet, or flies with his own two wings. My .

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  #2378  
Old May 26th, 2018, 02:51 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Really cool mini.

My favorite part of the design is Swift Vengeance. But as others have said, it bends the rules farther than they're meant to be bent.
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  #2379  
Old May 26th, 2018, 03:12 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop



Well met!






How about something like

Not So Swift Vengeance
If an Einar Kyrie you control is destroyed by a normal attack, you may take a turn with General Kuah at the end of the Round[, after all other players have taken their turns].

It could be more concise, but you get the idea.

I also don't like Inspiration being copied over from Spartacus - it tarnishes his uniqueness. ~ obfuscatedhippo

You could say that about any unit that borrows/rewrites powers.





Poor Evar Scarcarver's Uniqueness has been tainted forever!






Not to mention the Deepworm Drow's:






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  #2380  
Old May 26th, 2018, 03:14 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by obfuscatedhippo View Post

Swift Vengenance 13
Once per turn, when an Einar Kyrie you control is destroyed by a normal attack, you may move General Kuah up to 5 spaces. General Kuah may only move if he ends his turn adjacent to an opponent's figure. After moving, choose one opponent's figure adjacent to General Kuah and roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 13 or higher the chosen figure receives 2 wounds.

I also don't like Inspiration being copied over from Spartacus - it tarnishes his uniqueness.

I do agree that the Imperium need some help but you might be over doing it.
I could get behind this version of Swift Vengeance. It still poses a rather large threat to the enemy (especially since it bypasses defense, which would help the Imperium take down tougher targets more reliably), but it avoids inserting full turns within turns.

Interestingly, it also could provide a little more value for Emperor Andask's Kyrie Supremacy, albeit he's already somewhat of a poor choice for the Imperium since his attack aura only works once per turn.

I'm curious, @Sir Heroscape , if you've been able to test the Imperium with Kuah and Marcus/Atlaga. Since Einar's Kyries already had two options to get movement boosts, with Kuah, they could go up to 8 Move with Stealth Flying and 6 attacks of 4. Granted, that requires spending upwards of 200 points on movement boosts, but it's an interesting prospect nonetheless. In larger point games, I think that the Imperium would be nigh unstoppable, and even if we don't playtest at those point values, it's worth keeping in mind.
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  #2381  
Old May 26th, 2018, 03:18 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

How about some kind of 'swoop in to strike someone who's taken a shot at a nearby ally power' akin to C3G's Bizarro or Sub-Mariner? It would allow him to stand as his own thing and, if implemented correctly, possibly even give subtle synergy with the Imperium, as their big problem (other than a ludicrously inflated price tag) is being easily shot down before they can enter combat - if this guy can protect them, or at least make the enemy pay for shooting them, that could be something.


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  #2382  
Old May 26th, 2018, 03:20 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Copying powers can be good. But Spartacus' Inspiration is his calling card, as it were. It's what makes him 200 points. It would be like re-using Taelord's Attack Aura, or Heracles' Labors, or Q9's Queglix Gun. Drawing inspiration and mechanics from those powers would be fine, but I would be wary of slapping those on another unit.

and edit: I think something like what L_O just mentioned would be fantastic. It's always nice to see some C3G ideas ported into our "world".
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  #2383  
Old May 26th, 2018, 03:24 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

The Imperium don't "need help." At least, not from us. We have never treated the C3V/SoV universe as a place to go for bandages for existing units. We are not the ambulance.

I hope everybody understands that, because a unit that wears that role on its sleeve will get pushback from the voters. The more glaring its intended function as an ambulance, the more perfect it will have to be otherwise.

Like SF, I like the theme of Swift Vengeance. It would have to be reworked to make it something that will not be a turn interruption. I encourage you to carve off the rest, and let him be a nifty Einar Kyrie who is not a bandage for an existing unit. I would pull him back to the drawing board, @Sir Heroscape ; for different reasons both of his powers would doom him down the road.

Thank you, as always and for all of you, for sharing your custom with the community.

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  #2384  
Old May 26th, 2018, 03:35 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by kolakoski View Post

I also don't like Inspiration being copied over from Spartacus - it tarnishes his uniqueness. ~ obfuscatedhippo

You could say that about any unit that borrows/rewrites powers.

Spoiler Alert!

All great art is a combination of the existing into new forms.

"There is nothing new under the sun."

I'm going to have to disagree here. There's a clear difference between reusing generic powers like Double Attack (even a situational version) or poisoned weapons and reusing the heart of an entire faction. It's perfectly plausible (and even to be expected) that multiple characters would be poisoning weapons, or be able to fight more efficiently up close, but I'm not fond of replicating another faction's unique gimmick entirely.

This is largely the reason why I dislike the recent Master Lao Xin: even if he works, I've seen him before. The method that he uses to create a viable monk army doesn't scream monks to me, whereas the vision of Kato Katsuro ordering an entire army around from the backlines is immediately thematic. We had never seen anything like Kato before, but now we have Kantono Daishi and Lao Xin, which inherently makes Kato feel less unique. I think that overusing existing powers and mechanics homogenizes the armies, and while there is certainly a place for reusing powers, they must be done so in ways that make sense or with their own twist.

I think that the following quote is a good illustration:
Quote:
Good artists copy; great artists steal.
Reusing work necessitates making it your own, applying your own flavors and ideas to make it distinct, whether that be from a unique combination of powers or from radically new ideas. Here, it feels like Spartacus' Inspiration has been copied, which not only lacks a feeling of freshness, but also dilutes what made his method of boosting the gladiators unique in the first place.

I don't believe that General Kuah can't use something in the vein of inspiration, but seeing nearly verbatim the entire gimmick of a faction transposed does not sit well with me, and I doubt it ever will. I'd rather see things like Tomoe Gozen or the Command Courier, which take hints of ideas that we've seen before and take them in a new direction.
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  #2385  
Old May 26th, 2018, 05:10 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Sorry for my temporary hiatus this afternoon. I've been entertaining family this weekend.

First off, thank you all for your comments. This thread is extremely valuable in seeing what issues or hangups I sometimes can't see as a designer. Inherently we love our designs until we get a different perspective and that's what this thread offers.

After reading all the comments, rather than responding to all of you with the different ideas and suggestions given, I think I'll use @Dad_Scaper s advice and bring it back to the drawing board. While I don't necessarily agree that there shouldn't be units designed to assist other units (in the sense of bandaging (ambulancing) inherent issues with their design), I can see the potential issues with the current power set and the need to look into other changes.

Of all the suggestions, I love your idea @Lazy Orang to use an ability similar to the C3G units you suggested. Those units' abilities are actually along the lines of what I was already starting to think of changing the ability to, before I read your post...so great suggestion and I appreciate the feedback.

Regarding rehashing Spartacus' ability, I never really saw it as an issue but I can understand the reasons now that we've had some good explanations.

My only main issue after reading all the comments is that I don't think his design should be a standalone unit with his own power set that doesn't synergize much with others. Here's why:

How many figures are there that fit an Einar Kyrie look and feel? until this figure I found...none that I can think of. So for me, with the limited number of Kyrie figures we have to work with, I think it's important the unit bring more to synergize with other Einar Kyrie than simply just being another hero to add to the game. This here is an opportunity to design a unit that can make an unplayable squad, playable. I think the value here is immense and I don't wanna miss the boat on this one. I don't think in this case it's wrong to design a hero that can directly help a unit that never sees the light of day. I think it makes sense to avoid bandaging units that could use help, but don't REALLY need it, but in this case, I think it's universally accepted that the Imperium NEED help. Just think of the last time you played the Imperium in a heroscape game? and that should give you an idea...for me it had probably been about 1.5 years since I'd played them until I did playtests with Kuah. Our purpose may not be to bandage the Imperium, but I don't see it that way. Rather I see their lack of synergy and design to be a hole that never had time to be filled, or corrected by additional units from the original designers. Some holes like that definitely seem to exist, and This is an opportunity to fill that hole. If I can design a unit that brings the Einar Imperium to the table to have fun and be even remotely competitive, then I think that is an honorable mission for this unit I'm trying to design. If I were to just design another bruiser hero that was an Einar Kyrie, I think it would be a missed opportunity to make something really special and valuable for the game.

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  #2386  
Old May 26th, 2018, 05:32 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape View Post
I think it's universally accepted that the Imperium NEED help.
I don't have anything to add to what DS wrote. Just sticking my hand up here to demonstrate that this is not true: I don't think the Imperium need help.
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  #2387  
Old May 26th, 2018, 05:34 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

For what it's worth, I'd also rather see a unit with synergies with the Imperium than another standalone hero. We have plenty of options for those (Kyries and non-Kyries alike), and the idea of seeing just another Tyrian who follows Einar holds little appeal to me. I'd much rather see the Einar Imperium be a viable option, adding more variety to the game overall.

The problem that I've found when I've been thinking about how to boost them, though, is that they're so overpriced that any unit boosting them practically has to be drastically underpriced for it to do them any good. With other units that are only slightly subpar, "band-aid" units can still be reasonably balanced whilst helping, but with the Imperium, any kind of General Kuah is going to be far more valuable than his points should allow. Making him only help the Imperium to compensate makes him feel like a bandage, which can leave a sour taste in some peoples' mouths.
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  #2388  
Old May 26th, 2018, 05:41 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

You could make him a cheerleader, if you like. Just please don't horseshoe the Einar Imperium into the design.

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