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  #73  
Old September 12th, 2018, 09:45 PM
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Re: Orc's Power Rankings

On the contrary, I'd say Blades are quite close in power level to Romans and Dwarves. Certainly higher than the B+ squads. FWIW, Greenies are an elite A-, not really fair to compare them to anything else there besides Kaemon.

The 6th move isn't really a waste just because Grimnak only has 5. It allows excellent flexibility and tethers. They should also have Nerak of course, as well as sometimes Tornak. Their stats with all those buffs can become quite nice.

Not knowing that PKs' defense buff doesn't work against specials definitely hurt. I still think you probably should have shoved Concan up adjacent to Zelrig on the central height of Quasatch. Perhaps OM 1 3 PKs, OM 2 Concan first round into OM 1 Concan 2nd?

Concan is pretty bad with Knights simply because there are better options. After 3x Knights and Gilbert, you can take more knights as well as Alastair and Finn depending on points. Concan's buff is pretty redundant with Gilbert, and Finn is always the better choice for the 80.

And lastly, I still have to write up descriptions for everything. I'm actually thinking that I'd rather just start a podcast/youtube channel or something instead of always having to type everything out, but I still have to convince IS and MQ23 to do it with me...
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  #74  
Old September 12th, 2018, 09:55 PM
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Power Plus

I understand kind of where you're coming from with Concan although I still think you're slightly overvaluing him with PKs. I guess to me when I was comparing him to Atlaga, he lacks range and that's huge in my assessment. Bolt is kind of annoying in any sort of format where you have to play against him, but I don't think it's a strong negative. 7 move Raelin is also nice.

Concan is definitely harder to play well and that's always worth something in a format where you play against it. They're closer than I thought in my original assessment, but Atlaga is still the better figure to me.

~Dysole, who would rather have Romans or dwarves over blades but it's for different reasons and doesn't think it's completely unwinnable. I did beat Orcs blades with my straight blast build two years ago though. ~_^


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  #75  
Old September 12th, 2018, 09:59 PM
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Re: Power Plus

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Originally Posted by Dysole View Post
I understand kind of where you're coming from with Concan although I still think you're slightly overvaluing him with PKs. I guess to me when I was comparing him to Atlaga, he lacks range and that's huge in my assessment. Bolt is kind of annoying in any sort of format where you have to play against him, but I don't think it's a strong negative. 7 move Raelin is also nice.

Concan is definitely harder to play well and that's always worth something in a format where you play against it. They're closer than I thought in my original assessment, but Atlaga is still the better figure to me.

~Dysole, who would rather have Romans or dwarves over blades but it's for different reasons and doesn't think it's completely unwinnable. I did beat Orcs blades with my straight blast build two years ago though. ~_^
That last part is definitely true, although I remember there being a certain troll in there as well... I also have quite a bit of respect for straight Blasts. There's a trick to it that you executed well, and I definitely could have played the Blades better that game. I was pretty rusty after 2 years off.
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  #76  
Old September 12th, 2018, 10:25 PM
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Re: Orc's Power Rankings

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Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne View Post
On the contrary, I'd say Blades are quite close in power level to Romans and Dwarves. Certainly higher than the B+ squads. FWIW, Greenies are an elite A-, not really fair to compare them to anything else there besides Kaemon.
As a quick aside, I don't really understand this line of reasoning. The point of rankings should be to compare the strength of the various units, which is made easier by the tiers. If it isn't fair to compare Greenscales to the other A- units, shouldn't they be placed at A? Of course the tiers will have variance inside of them, but I don't think it should be so large that it's not reasonable to compare two cards in the same rank.

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The 6th move isn't really a waste just because Grimnak only has 5. It allows excellent flexibility and tethers. They should also have Nerak of course, as well as sometimes Tornak. Their stats with all those buffs can become quite nice.
Grimnak/Tornak/Nerak's buffs can definitely be nice, but that requires major sacrifices to mobility in order to capitalize on all three, and even with just Grimnak/Nerak, you're not able to take as much advantage of the high move as say, spiders. They're definitely still good and mobile, but I'm not convinced that they're on the same level as Romans or Dwarves. I'd say that they're close, but personally I would leave them at B+.

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Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne View Post
Not knowing that PKs' defense buff doesn't work against specials definitely hurt. I still think you probably should have shoved Concan up adjacent to Zelrig on the central height of Quasatch. Perhaps OM 1 3 PKs, OM 2 Concan first round into OM 1 Concan 2nd?
Part of the problem that I had was that I couldn't reach Zelrig within a single turn, and I was trying to minimize the number of PKs that you could kill in a turn. It would've taken two turns to properly reach the hill, by which point I doubted that Zelrig would still be there (especially after I won my first game kiting Ne-Gok-Sa and Marcus with a 1-life Zelrig for almost two rounds). I probably still should've made that choice to try and force you off the hill if nothing else, but I was hoping to get more value out of the PKs after I screwed up their initial placement and inadvertently left them to die.

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Concan is pretty bad with Knights simply because there are better options. After 3x Knights and Gilbert, you can take more knights as well as Alastair and Finn depending on points. Concan's buff is pretty redundant with Gilbert, and Finn is always the better choice for the 80.
That's a good point. I've never held Concan in very high regard (granted, I also haven't played with him other than our match at GenCon) largely because I can't find a good place for him in my knight builds. Knights have a ton more options to use than the PKs, many of which bond, so it makes sense that he would have a worse impact on them.

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  #77  
Old September 13th, 2018, 02:17 AM
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Re: Orc's Power Rankings

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Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne View Post
On the contrary, I'd say Blades are quite close in power level to Romans and Dwarves. Certainly higher than the B+ squads. FWIW, Greenies are an elite A-, not really fair to compare them to anything else there besides Kaemon.
As a quick aside, I don't really understand this line of reasoning. The point of rankings should be to compare the strength of the various units, which is made easier by the tiers. If it isn't fair to compare Greenscales to the other A- units, shouldn't they be placed at A? Of course the tiers will have variance inside of them, but I don't think it should be so large that it's not reasonable to compare two cards in the same rank.

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Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne View Post
The 6th move isn't really a waste just because Grimnak only has 5. It allows excellent flexibility and tethers. They should also have Nerak of course, as well as sometimes Tornak. Their stats with all those buffs can become quite nice.
Grimnak/Tornak/Nerak's buffs can definitely be nice, but that requires major sacrifices to mobility in order to capitalize on all three, and even with just Grimnak/Nerak, you're not able to take as much advantage of the high move as say, spiders. They're definitely still good and mobile, but I'm not convinced that they're on the same level as Romans or Dwarves. I'd say that they're close, but personally I would leave them at B+.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne View Post
Not knowing that PKs' defense buff doesn't work against specials definitely hurt. I still think you probably should have shoved Concan up adjacent to Zelrig on the central height of Quasatch. Perhaps OM 1 3 PKs, OM 2 Concan first round into OM 1 Concan 2nd?
Part of the problem that I had was that I couldn't reach Zelrig within a single turn, and I was trying to minimize the number of PKs that you could kill in a turn. It would've taken two turns to properly reach the hill, by which point I doubted that Zelrig would still be there (especially after I won my first game kiting Ne-Gok-Sa and Marcus with a 1-life Zelrig for almost two rounds). I probably still should've made that choice to try and force you off the hill if nothing else, but I was hoping to get more value out of the PKs after I screwed up their initial placement and inadvertently left them to die.

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Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne View Post
Concan is pretty bad with Knights simply because there are better options. After 3x Knights and Gilbert, you can take more knights as well as Alastair and Finn depending on points. Concan's buff is pretty redundant with Gilbert, and Finn is always the better choice for the 80.
That's a good point. I've never held Concan in very high regard (granted, I also haven't played with him other than our match at GenCon) largely because I can't find a good place for him in my knight builds. Knights have a ton more options to use than the PKs, many of which bond, so it makes sense that he would have a worse impact on them.
Oh, I've very seriously considered moving Greenies and Kaemon up. I just don't think they're quite comparable to the As, but they're pretty easily the top 2 A-s.

Movement is more than just being able to spread out or claim high ground fast. Movement is resupplying units in important positions when they inevitably die. Movement is being able to more quickly establish board control against other melee, allowing you to choose where the fight happens, and movement is resupplying the front lines against range without having to move the closest guys. An extra move is valuable in all of those little points where you are able to move a Blade that is one space farther away, making the next one one space closer. It's maximizing all of the minutiae of movement, as well as enabling even better tethers.

What adding Tornak allows is for a sort of pincer assault on the enemy. Both Grimnak and Tornak poke the mid-edges with Blades around them and Nerak supporting from behind. Double-stacking is nice but not always necessary; it's certainly something I've pulled off several times, but it seems to be a "win-more" maneuver that just hammers a game home.

Our matchup was certainly a bit tough for you. Concan can at least eat some wounds though which is very important for the PKs' survival.
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  #78  
Old September 13th, 2018, 04:00 PM
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Re: Orc's Power Rankings

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Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne View Post
Oh, I've very seriously considered moving Greenies and Kaemon up. I just don't think they're quite comparable to the As, but they're pretty easily the top 2 A-s.
So, would you say that they're A-+s?

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Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne View Post
Movement is more than just being able to spread out or claim high ground fast. Movement is resupplying units in important positions when they inevitably die. Movement is being able to more quickly establish board control against other melee, allowing you to choose where the fight happens, and movement is resupplying the front lines against range without having to move the closest guys. An extra move is valuable in all of those little points where you are able to move a Blade that is one space farther away, making the next one one space closer. It's maximizing all of the minutiae of movement, as well as enabling even better tethers.

What adding Tornak allows is for a sort of pincer assault on the enemy. Both Grimnak and Tornak poke the mid-edges with Blades around them and Nerak supporting from behind. Double-stacking is nice but not always necessary; it's certainly something I've pulled off several times, but it seems to be a "win-more" maneuver that just hammers a game home.
I agree that movement is extremely important and gives a ton of flexibility, but I still stand by the assertion that the low stats of the Blade Gruts generally encourages them to give up a lot of that potential. The main time that they can always take full advantage of that move is when they're reinforcing or catching up, but with only 18 figures, I don't think this is worth the trade-off for not being able to stand on their own very well. At least the Romans can easily buff their defense and bond with several great heroes for only a couple more points (granted, they don't have a Grimnak), and the Dwarves can still get that burst of speed while having much better staying power.

Quote:
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Our matchup was certainly a bit tough for you. Concan can at least eat some wounds though which is very important for the PKs' survival.
Eh, I think you still would've won if it hadn't been RtW. I made several mistakes beyond just not verifying that Insubstantial works against Special Attacks, and your army was pretty good in how unconventional but strong it was. I was more concerned about letting two PKs die in a turn than Concan taking wounds, which wasn't worth the +1 defense for each to me. I can see how it might've worked out better, though, if I had left only one adjacent to him at a time at the beginning.

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  #79  
Old September 15th, 2018, 12:53 AM
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Re: Orc's Power Rankings

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Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne View Post
Oh, I've very seriously considered moving Greenies and Kaemon up. I just don't think they're quite comparable to the As, but they're pretty easily the top 2 A-s.
So, would you say that they're A-+s?

Quote:
Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne View Post
Movement is more than just being able to spread out or claim high ground fast. Movement is resupplying units in important positions when they inevitably die. Movement is being able to more quickly establish board control against other melee, allowing you to choose where the fight happens, and movement is resupplying the front lines against range without having to move the closest guys. An extra move is valuable in all of those little points where you are able to move a Blade that is one space farther away, making the next one one space closer. It's maximizing all of the minutiae of movement, as well as enabling even better tethers.

What adding Tornak allows is for a sort of pincer assault on the enemy. Both Grimnak and Tornak poke the mid-edges with Blades around them and Nerak supporting from behind. Double-stacking is nice but not always necessary; it's certainly something I've pulled off several times, but it seems to be a "win-more" maneuver that just hammers a game home.
I agree that movement is extremely important and gives a ton of flexibility, but I still stand by the assertion that the low stats of the Blade Gruts generally encourages them to give up a lot of that potential. The main time that they can always take full advantage of that move is when they're reinforcing or catching up, but with only 18 figures, I don't think this is worth the trade-off for not being able to stand on their own very well. At least the Romans can easily buff their defense and bond with several great heroes for only a couple more points (granted, they don't have a Grimnak), and the Dwarves can still get that burst of speed while having much better staying power.

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Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne View Post
Our matchup was certainly a bit tough for you. Concan can at least eat some wounds though which is very important for the PKs' survival.
Eh, I think you still would've won if it hadn't been RtW. I made several mistakes beyond just not verifying that Insubstantial works against Special Attacks, and your army was pretty good in how unconventional but strong it was. I was more concerned about letting two PKs die in a turn than Concan taking wounds, which wasn't worth the +1 defense for each to me. I can see how it might've worked out better, though, if I had left only one adjacent to him at a time at the beginning.
Ehh, I'd recommend playing a dozen or so games with Heavies and then switching to Blades. I think you'll be amazed (as I was) at just how useful the 6th move is.

On our game, I think you win if it's not RtW. I wouldn't recommend bringing Zelrig in RtW, he's pretty brutal.

Part of the strength of Concan is his fear factor. Fly up, whack Zelrig for 4 dice, maybe get a hit. Now, Zelrig either has to leave height and take a disengage or he runs the risk of Concan/ a PK whacking him with 4 dice. I think you're happy with either result.
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Old September 18th, 2018, 05:45 PM
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Re: Orc's Power Rankings

I think I'm gonna post my personal rankings soon, would it be frowned upon if I made my own thread as well? I don't want to clog this one or the original one, since I'll be ranking every unit.

I have it all written in a notebook so i have pretty much all of it sorted and figured out. One spoiler I will say is Laglor will be higher on mine.


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  #81  
Old September 18th, 2018, 05:54 PM
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Re: Orc's Power Rankings

Please post your own, in your own thread! It would be more fun that way. I look forward to reading it.

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  #82  
Old September 18th, 2018, 06:40 PM
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Re: Orc's Power Rankings

Yeah, go for it bro! Looking forward to it!

Of course, feel free to post a convincing argument for Laglor in this thread (aka prove to me he's not overcosted compared to the much better options in the armies he's any good in ). I've already adjusted some unit rankings and I plan on continuing to do so. I've been influenced by the views of many over the course of my Scaping career, so I do value community feedback (especially from high-level players like yourself and many others who have contributed).

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Old September 19th, 2018, 11:41 AM
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Re: Orc's Power Rankings

Probably nitpicking here, but if you've got Romans up at A-, I could see Valguard being B+. I was trying to play low when I ran romans in RtW a couple years ago, but he was a big time player. He's so tough to kill and Romans usually have someone else to bond with if needed. He might be 4th best behind Marcus, MBS, and NGS, but he does provide something different. Agh, Morgrimm too, hmm. They really have great options.

Also, I've stuck this thread. Nice work and discussion.

And Drake's rating had always been based on monolithic Valiant armies using him. In that context (of say the old 520 with 5x Mass), he was a player, but perhaps a bit player. Paying 15 more for Nilf was never really an option.

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Old September 19th, 2018, 02:11 PM
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Re: Orc's Power Rankings

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Ehh, I'd recommend playing a dozen or so games with Heavies and then switching to Blades. I think you'll be amazed (as I was) at just how useful the 6th move is.

On our game, I think you win if it's not RtW. I wouldn't recommend bringing Zelrig in RtW, he's pretty brutal.

Part of the strength of Concan is his fear factor. Fly up, whack Zelrig for 4 dice, maybe get a hit. Now, Zelrig either has to leave height and take a disengage or he runs the risk of Concan/ a PK whacking him with 4 dice. I think you're happy with either result.
I'll definitely have to proxy them sometime and see just how different they play firsthand.

Eh, I don't have enough common squads to use Zelrig at my own games very often, so it's a nice chance to bring him out (even if he terrorizes my own armies as compensation).

That's why I mentioned that I probably still should have flown up Concan, since I could've at least forced you off of the height. Hindsight is 20/20.

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