The Pre-SoV Workshop

[Soundwarp SG-1]

Originally Posted by Scytale

The point isn't specific examples, per se. The point is that the game is not designed to care. I can (and have, in similar arguments) come up with perfectly reasonable powers that greatly call into question who is inflicting the wound, or if any figure is at all. It's just not something inherent in the ruleset, and there are already multiple examples where it is either unclear (Wannok, Knockback) or is inflicted by multiple figures (Marro Plague, Zombie Onslaught).

Alright, I remain completely unconvinced there's actually an issue (the Ogre Pulverizer sure seems to think the game cares at least), but I also don't really care how heroscape's 'gibberish pretending to be a ruleset' works anymore Good to know it's a no go for future powers.

[superfrog]

Originally Posted by Ixe

Spiked Shield seems like an interesting retaliation threat although it doesn't seem to provide much actual defense. Does he still get the damage if that last wound destroyed him (or if he was bumped off by poison weapons)?

I don't quite get the 3 wound threshold on Tribal Desperation. I think I can see some justifications but it just feels a bit clunky.

To me, it works on two levels.

Mechanically, it provides a decision point for the opponent. Attacking Exorrin is always a (slight) risk. But when he's at 3 wounds, attacking any of the Greenscales becomes a bigger risk, forcing you to take the smaller risk. It just provides some strategy for the opponent for when you attack the squad vs. the hero.

Thematically, he only becomes desperate when he feels like he's dying himself (half life).

If I took the threshold away, it would be more reminiscent of Zogross (the whole foil idea) and that might be good. It does make the opponent's decision a lot more straightforward, although not entirely so.


As to dok's question, it was not supposed to work with your own figures killing Greenscales. That will go away in the next version, good catch.

[Dad_Scaper]

SF, I hope that this post didn't get lost in the sauce.

Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper

I couldn't agree more with both of Scytale's comments. I *like* Spiked Shield, but the name is just a little too "on the nose." Something like "Furious Defense" captures the same theme, which is also expressed by the mini's spiked shield, without feeling quite so clumsy.

Tribal Desperation has a couple of issues. One of which, as Scy suggests, is the name, which we can discuss. At first I thought, "Oh, another power depending on him having a wound. Seems a bit much." Then I thought, "Oh, wait, the two powers could play off with each other in an interesting way." And I was into it. But now I'm thinking, "No, actually they don't relate in any interesting, thematic, or meaningful way." So could you speak to that, please? And if we want to get serious about it then we can fix the name.

As I noted afterward, I think Tribal Zealot would work for the second power, assuming you want to keep it otherwise unchanged.

[superfrog]

Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper

SF, I hope that this post didn't get lost in the sauce.

As I noted afterward, I think Tribal Zealot would work for the second power, assuming you want to keep it otherwise unchanged.

I'm considering name changes to "Reckless Defense" and "Tribal Zeal", respectively.

[Dad_Scaper]

Ok. But nothing to add about the two "taking wounds" powers, other than your comments about him being a sort of mirror of Zogross? That's fine.

[superfrog]

Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper

Ok. But nothing to add about the two "taking wounds" powers, other than your comments about him being a sort of mirror of Zogross? That's fine.

Yeah, that's about all I have to say there.

It's a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" that mirrors Zogross' forcing you into taking the opportunity strike.

[Ixe]

Originally Posted by Scytale

I have come to feel that the custom community has become too enamored with making powers that match the miniature, much more so than the ODs.

For other designers, I wanted to take a second to discuss some more nuance to this point. Since the SoV process requires miniatures in adequate price and supply as a starting point, many people have to find a figure first and then mold their design to it second. As such there can be a tendency to over-design to capture so many little details on a figure when a lot of that can be captured by the stats. Two weapons doesn't mean you need a multiattack and could just have a higher normal attack. A big shield could just be higher defense. A melee and ranged weapon could just imply that they use one up close and the other from far away. Every detail doesn't need to be mechanically represented.

I think there is some confusion when we judge on theme or people talk about concepts like the Iron Triangle on how far to go to marry the miniature to mechanics and theme. For me at least, it is much more important to convey the proper feeling of the model than to add some marginal power to include a tiny quirk.

[caps]

I also try to keep in mind figures like Valguard. The guy has a lizard arm (it's in his bio, even!) And no power to go with it.

[Dad_Scaper]

Originally Posted by Ixe

I think there is some confusion when we judge on theme or people talk about concepts like the Iron Triangle on how far to go to marry the miniature to mechanics and theme. For me at least, it is much more important to convey the proper feeling of the model than to add some marginal power to include a tiny quirk.

Yes, precisely. It must be elegant, and not clumsy.

[Ixe]

Originally Posted by capsocrates

I also try to keep in mind figures like Valguard. The guy has a lizard arm (it's in his bio, even!) And no power to go with it.

I think Valguard is largely misunderstood. His bio calls out how his alien lizard arm gives him great "stamina" and increases his "blood lust," so I believe that is reflected in his high Life and his First Assault. Valguard was the only human with higher than 6 life for a reason (until Tandros Kreel came around but he has magic items). Still, he's a good example that you don't need an explicit power called "ALIEN LIZARD ARM" to capture the theme of his figure.

[Sir Heroscape]

I'm pretty close to submitting this to the SoV, so this is more of a polish up post than anything else. I wanna make sure I'm not missing anything glaringly obvious. I feel very good about where Jakaw stands. His availability is ~60 units after a quick glance at markets today and in an attempt to flesh out the Beakfaces a little more with available figures, I think I've found a good one.

Now before anyone goes crying that his Reckless Battle Rush is OP...I should point out that it's actually not in many cases. It definitely assists in his ability to hop out early game and grab a glyph, as well as a the occasional rush forward before the initial strike...but keep in mind this is before each round and there's no guarentee you'll win initiative. In practice, especially if he's on a glyph, you actually don't want him to use it, unless you're taking a risk to rush into an engagement if you win initiative. Which would then help his case, because he is being played recklessly as his personality and ability states. Notably, he does no have Glide, which is more because he's weighed down by armor and weapons, which also makes him perfect for running in and tying down units briefly while units arrive. His almost exact comparison would be Brave Arrow who at 50 points also carries a good punch, has a movement bonus, has an ability against ranged attacks but also increases attacks of those around him. Statistically Jakaw is the same with abilities very similar to Brave Arrows. His creativity and uniqueness are fun and exciting to play with his battle rush alteration as well as his conditional normal attack that isn't quite a double-attack and isn't quite a Reckless second swing like Martial La Hire. Of course, his use and viability is much more prominant with the potential additions of the Beakface Archer and Beakface Rogue, but even still, adding a lower point hero to the faction with fun unique abilities that can still be used and activated without the Archers help, make him a good addition to the game.

I'm pretty sold on his design...so not asking for any major reworking here...but of course all opinions are welcome.

Thoughts please?

[Leaf_It]

Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape

Thoughts please?

Looks pretty solid. He's almost guaranteed to wound with each attack, but it's only a single attack. Stats remind me of the Drow Chain Fighter, but with more HP, and without a ranged ability. Added points for the additional HP, but he isn't a common so not too pricey. All looks good to me. If playtesting has gone well, I'd love to see him run through the SoV.