Speaking of Power Creep...

[wriggz]

After poking around here for a while I have noticed a few things regarding power creep. First the community as a whole is completely against it, and the game designers seem to agree with us. Just look at the release dates of the A+ ranked units. Some would even argue later waves accually got worse. Further bolstering my point is the help people offered for the chap playing in his first tournment with only one RotV set offering a very competitive build.

This got me thinking--especially with wave 9 and 1 on the horizon--how is the game staying engageing. When you can't keep releasing "the best figure yet" what keeps the game fresh. I argue for heroscape it is the size of the army that is creeping up. Consider having only wave 1 and RotV, it is totally possible to have 300-400 point armies that take a long time to play. Back then a 100 point hero was a big investment, but now with dragons and a fair number of heros at the 200 point mark this are getting bigger. Realy how can you field spartcus or kato in anything less then a 600 or more point game? Filler points have also changed, we all wanted the 10 point ninja's, but how often is 40 points more like it in the spirt of early orcs and romans?

The good news is that with higher point armies and figures the time it takes to play a game is still reasonable since killing a high point figure with another high point figure doesn't take that much longer than with medium pointed figures. I think the bad news is a high point "squadscape" game can be grulling to play, "GO 4th x 10, yeah 10th x 9 (scarcasm implied).

This leads to my secret love of marvel scape and how I imagine that as heroscape grows we will see higher and higher pointed heros and squads that can be still taken down by hords, a la Hulk, but are needed to keep up speedy game times and fit into limited start zones. It is when this happens that our Joten, calvery and marvelheroes will show thier true worth and we can leave behind the dull days of squadscape.

[Jexik]

The lack of power creep or planned rarity schemes is part of what makes Heroscape so special.

The figures are fun and interesting to play because the game itself is fun and balanced. What a novel idea! As much as I like trying to come up with the perfect armies, it often comes down to the map and matchup.

A lot of the traditional tournament structure is born out of making life easier for the people organizing tournaments. Most tourney maps only use one master set and 1-2 terrain expansions because it's easier to acquire enough materials and build the maps that way. 24 hex starting zones were originally popularized because they didn't require any marking if you use a 24 hex piece for each player. It later turned out that regardless of point level, this starting zone and map size generally lets you finish a game in about an hour. It's usually kill 'em all because that is the easiest scenario to explain to people.

But I think you're over simplifying matters if you think that simply increasing point totals is the way to make the game more fun. Sure, you can change the point totals, or even the starting zone size and location, but Heroscape provides a system for varying the maps and scenarios that should keep things interesting for many years, even if we were to get no new figures.

That said, new figures are awesome, and what I like to see the most! Not because I'm looking for the next game-breaking unit, but something that will shake up the way people play the game, or dust off previously neglected figures. Morsbane still isn't the best, but Ulginesh and the others certainly increased his value. The Redcoats don't overshadow the 4th Mass, but they play a little differently. The Marro Stingers make expensive heroes like Q9 or Nilfheim a little dangerous to play, while simultaneously making slow melee figures a little more viable.

Also, squads are very fun for me to play. I hope they never become obsolete.

[BurnyFlame]

I think the best way to bring more high-point valued heroes into the game is to come out with the Marvel Expansion already. Also, as to something wriggz was saying, I would like to see a list of the time a figure came out vs. its power ranking to see if there is any trend, although I suspect it will be inconclusive.

And I agree with wriggz that 10X any squad would be little fun to play against and lead to much "scarcasm" . . .

[Elf_Archer]

Oh My Gosh!!!

Burny flame stopped typing in red!!!



Anyways, the points for a tournament ready army isn't increasing, it's the number of armies that aren't tournament ready.

[Thorgrim]

I've been worried about the opposite of Power Creep. I guess we should call it... Suck Creep. I have actually been dissappointed by the past few waves. Wave 7 was mediocur, and Wave 8 only had the elf wizards and 10th Reg that really interested me.

[Confred]

An interesting aspect of Heroscape is that most the units are lackluster; there isn't an easy answer or one size fits all.
Buying more helps round out armies, but the collection never feels complete because of the respective weaknesses.
(Now, I'm speaking as a guy that doesn't have everything. There might be a cap somewhere, where enough is enough.)
Why to buy more?
For me, stubborness

[Kobu]

Originally Posted by Confred

An interesting aspect of Heroscape is that most the units are lackluster; there isn't an easy answer or one size fits all.
Buying more helps round out armies, but the collection never feels complete because of the respective weaknesses.
(Now, I'm speaking as a guy that doesn't have everything. There might be a cap somewhere, where enough is enough.)
Why to buy more?
For me, stubborness

Lackluster? That's a different view. I would say most units are pretty powerful and interesting. RotV set the bar high to start with and I think only a handful of units have pushed beyond that.

[Bengi]

Personally, I'd rather see more of the lackluster units get boosts from new expansions, than see new powerful units. A prime example being the gladiators. I like that Skahen makes Dund almost playable now. I like that Khotsumet now bonds with a unit. I think it would be awesome if suddenly some older units got serious boosts and became highly competitive. Also, a new not-so-powerful unit with no synergy becomes almost useless competitively (Stink-eye, Moriko).

[Agent Minivann]

I think the place where power creep is dangerous is with rarity (made easier by blind purchase) and forced obsolescence. With both of those factors in play, the game is more about who has the most money to buy the best units. The fact that the "A+" units (for those that use that metric) are just as common with the older sets is a good thing to me. We aren't forced to have the bleeding edge units to be competitive.

I think the bigger question might be how much stock should we put in the power rankings. In the case of sports where power rankings are supposed to be a barometer of how well a team is doing at that moment in the season, the power rankings are not a substitute for actual competition. They also don't necessarily mean as much outside competitive play. In other words, while the power rankings are a useful tool, they are not the "end all, be all" of heroscape.

[Sup3rS0n1c]

Really, I think as long as they don't let it get too underpowered, and each has a poweful figure or two, having a wave or two of lesser figures is okay. It helps to even out the more powerful figures, and stop power creep from becoming too big.

[DrRansom]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

I've been worried about the opposite of Power Creep. I guess we should call it... Suck Creep. I have actually been dissappointed by the past few waves. Wave 7 was mediocur, and Wave 8 only had the elf wizards and 10th Reg that really interested me.

Yeah, "suckreap" as I shall call it was a concern of mine too but after thinking about the power rankings of some of the early figures, you see them all across the board. And with newer figs, it seems like the target they are aiming for is B or B+ which may hit higher or lower and I like that.

Also, The focus of HS has never been winning tournaments, it has been building commuity. "Building the best deck" mentality (which I was afraid of once WotC got involved) seems to be taking a back seat to a mentality of building lots of compraibly powerful armies for everyone in the room to have a shot.

I'm a fiercely competitive person within good reason but community and friendship always take presidence so I hope we continue in that direction..

But we shall see. I'd bet the new series will redeem some older pieces (Marro Cav, Gladiators, Etc.) that just aren't seeing their potential yet.

[Thorgrim]

In the end, it's a difficult road to walk. Making the new ones more powerful reaks of power creap, but making the new ones suck makes then older ones better in turn, making it reverse power creep like I mentioned before. Suckreap.