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  #73  
Old November 8th, 2016, 07:55 PM
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Re: The Book of Black Bat - Public Playtesting

I really think you should reconsider her at Attack 5. Cassandra Cain is probably the single best female fighter in the DCU. She has bested Batman, Lady Shiva, and countless others. She would wipe the floor with Black Canary and she has 5 Attack with Fists of Fury.

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  #74  
Old November 9th, 2016, 10:54 AM
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Re: The Book of Black Bat - Public Playtesting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spidey'tilIDie View Post
I really think you should reconsider her at Attack 5. Cassandra Cain is probably the single best female fighter in the DCU. She has bested Batman, Lady Shiva, and countless others. She would wipe the floor with Black Canary and she has 5 Attack with Fists of Fury.
Hmm... so, you think it'd be reasonable for her to come in at 200 or so? I've been pushing to keep her under that for thematic reasons, but if you think that'd actually be more thematic...

Maybe bump her attack back up to 5 but leave DP at 11?

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  #75  
Old November 9th, 2016, 06:23 PM
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Re: The Book of Black Bat - Public Playtesting

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Originally Posted by Viegon View Post
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Originally Posted by Spidey'tilIDie View Post
I really think you should reconsider her at Attack 5. Cassandra Cain is probably the single best female fighter in the DCU. She has bested Batman, Lady Shiva, and countless others. She would wipe the floor with Black Canary and she has 5 Attack with Fists of Fury.
Hmm... so, you think it'd be reasonable for her to come in at 200 or so? I've been pushing to keep her under that for thematic reasons, but if you think that'd actually be more thematic...

Maybe bump her attack back up to 5 but leave DP at 11?
Well, to be honest, I think you are looking at this from the wrong perspective. Her powers should cover the character and the cost should be what it is. I think her costing the same as Batman I is pretty on target as she is one of the few who have fought him and injured him (legitimately). Plus it still leaves Batman II to outclass her. I think the raising of the Defense Premonition makes sense too (from her batgirl design) as she is more prone to sacrifice herself now (whether for the counter-attack or to protect an innocent.) Very thematic, IMO.

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  #76  
Old November 9th, 2016, 09:15 PM
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Re: The Book of Black Bat - Public Playtesting

Is Cass really that much better than Black Canary? Most lists also put Black Canary as one of the top fighters in the DCU. Cass is also certainly not better than Bruce, even if she's close.

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  #77  
Old November 10th, 2016, 11:29 PM
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Re: The Book of Black Bat - Public Playtesting

To be fair I think that our Black Canary (like a lot of our early units) is on the low end for the character. I think I'd be comfortable with a Canary in the low-200s. There's some overlap between her and Batman, power-level-wise, from my point of view.

I figured Cass would be beneath both of them but if she's Canary tier than I have no problem with her pushing up toward 200.
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  #78  
Old November 11th, 2016, 07:53 PM
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Re: The Book of Black Bat - Public Playtesting

Alright, BamBam just signed up, so I'm going to send the design to him at 5 attack, DP 11, and 200 points, and see what he thinks.

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  #79  
Old November 15th, 2016, 11:06 AM
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Re: The Book of Black Bat - Public Playtesting

BamBam's games at 5 attack, DP11, and 200 points:

Quote:
Originally Posted by b57123m
C3G STANDARD PLAYTEST FEEDBACK FORM

NAME OF THE PLAYTEST UNIT: Black Bat

Army Test
Map: Fulcrum
Units:
Point Total: 710
Army 1
Black Bat with Bat Grapple (200), Green Arrow (130), Tempest (210), Speedy (80), Speedy (90)

Army 2
Ventriloquist (90), Killer Croc (200), Bane (190), Mister Zsasz (100), Harley Quinn (130)


The good guys underperformed, I had a decent set-up with Tempest blocking the height and Black Bat mopping the floor of the baddies held up in the water. Unfortunately, Black Bat never successfully rolled for Defensive Premonition and couldn’t live long enough to damage the rest of the baddies. I will say that it was super unexpected and awesome for Black Bat to destroy Killer Croc in one crazy attack.

HIGHLIGHTS

Spoiler Alert!


Who won? List figures remaining in the winning army (include life remaining for heroes): Bane (6), Harley Quinn (3), Ventriloquist (4)


___________________________________________________________

Army Test
Map: Fulcrum
Units:
Point Total: 800
Army 1
Black Bat with Bat Grapple (200), Tempest (210), Spoiler (50), Commissioner Gordon (90), Jason Todd – Robin (70), Tim Drake – Robin (120), Damian Wayne – Robin (80)

Army 2
Wrecker (230), Thunderball (190), Piledriver (190), Bulldozer (190)


This loss was probably more my choice in armies. I was hoping that the sidekicks would be able to put some smaller hits on the Wrecking Crew but Tempest and Black Bat fell too quickly for them to even set up their offensive. The Wrecking Crew beat the two key players and steamrolled Black Bat’s sidekicks.

HIGHLIGHTS

Spoiler Alert!


Who won? List figures remaining in the winning army (include life remaining for heroes): Piledriver (6), Thunderball (6), Wrecker (2).

___________________________________________________________

THOUGHTS ON THE TESTED UNIT'S COST, BALANCE, & DRAFTABILITY:
I feel as though I didn’t get to use Black Bat to her full potential, I can definitely see her usefulness but because I didn’t successfully roll for Defensive Premonition once, she died very quickly in my matches. Her draftability is great in many Batman builds, too bad my unlucky rolls lead to my loss. I think if I used Alfred I could have made her last longer and be more effective. She was very dangerous with height and I liked pairing her with the Bat-Grapple to achieve quick height over my opponents. In my first game she killed Killer Croc (200) in one Fists of Fury barrage, which means she destroyed her own point value which is good. Even in my second game, she dealt 4 wounds to Wreck (230) which means she took down 153.3 points before she fell.

GENERAL THOUGHTS ON THE TESTED UNIT: (fill in here)
I got super excited when I crushed Killer Croc in the first round. I was definitely worried that she was too good at that point but then the luck gods switched teams and she fell quickly. That single moment made her very fun and memorable to me. I like that she isn’t just another Batman secondary character with Vigilante Bonding and Bat-Grapple (ironically enough I gave her Bat-Grapple utility glyph but my point still stands.) My main issue was that she died too quick but that fix is already designed into her card, I just didn’t roll successfully for the extra defence or counter strike power.
Looking good. She rolled well on offense but poorly on defense, and did around her points worth both games.

I think this is my favorite version so far. If we can get one more set of tests along these lines hopefully we can go forward here.

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  #80  
Old November 15th, 2016, 06:31 PM
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Re: The Book of Black Bat - Public Playtesting

Managed to fit in some small games with her at 5 attack and DP 11. She showed a little strong in these games, but 1) in the first two games I forgot to adjust for her at 200 points, giving her team a 20 point advantage; 2) in all except the last game, the opposing team consistently had poor luck; and 3) it all came out to an even 2 wins and 2 losses, meaning even when she did amazing, it was at the expense of the rest of her team. So overall, with these games and BamBam's games, I'm pretty happy with this version at 200 points. Thoughts from anyone else?

Army Test 1
Map: Swamp Lab (no glyphs or special rules)
Units: Black Bat, Robin (Damian), Robin (Dick), Oracle, Nite Owl (620 points) VS Luke Cage, Iron Fist, Moon Knight (600 points)
Spoiler Alert!

___________________________________________________________

Army Test 2
Map: Swamp Lab (no glyphs or special rules)
Units: Black Bat, Robin (Damian), Robin (Dick), Oracle, Nite Owl (620 points) VS Luke Cage, Iron Fist, Moon Knight (600 points)
Spoiler Alert!

___________________________________________________________

Army Test 3
Map: Swamp Lab (no glyphs or special rules)
Units: Black Bat, Robin (Dick), Oracle, Nite Owl, Catgirl (600 points) VS Wolverine, Banshee, Wild Child (600 points)
Spoiler Alert!

___________________________________________________________

Army Test 4
Map: Swamp Lab (no glyphs or special rules)
Units: Black Bat, Robin (Dick), Oracle, Nite Owl, Catgirl (600 points) VS Wolverine, Banshee, Wild Child (600 points)
Spoiler Alert!

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  #81  
Old November 15th, 2016, 10:52 PM
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Re: The Book of Black Bat - Public Playtesting

Looking pretty good at 200.

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  #82  
Old November 18th, 2016, 11:18 AM
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Re: The Book of Black Bat - Public Playtesting

SP updated to 200 points, 5 attack, and DP11. This version has 2 wins and 4 losses, which feels like a good balance against the stronger version from before (190 points, 5 attack, and DP9), which got 4 wins to 1 loss. Overall, I'm settled with this version, so I propose we (finally) move Black Bat to Final Editing.

VOTES:
japes - Yea
johnny139 - Yea
Tornado - Yea
TrollBrute - Yea
Yodaking - Yea
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Last edited by Viegon; November 18th, 2016 at 10:52 PM.
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  #83  
Old November 18th, 2016, 11:51 AM
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Re: The Book of Black Bat - Vote for Final Editing

I'm good with that (and found her very fun in that iteration, more or less) so Yea for sure.
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  #84  
Old November 18th, 2016, 12:20 PM
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Re: The Book of Black Bat - Vote for Final Editing

yea
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