Reverse the Whip Army Archetypes

[Chris Perkins]

Yeah, I agree with @Dysole & @Grey Waves .

I think going for a strong A- or A army that has a few bad matchups is optimal, and then hoping you either get lucky to hit the bad matchup in a reverse round or get to play a weaker player when they have your army to try and pull out the win that way.

I'd be especially likely to take a strategy like that at ScapeCon, where there is another tournament to play if I miss day 2, so that I either make day 2 with a great chance to win it or can bail into a different tournament.

That doesn't seem great to me in terms of incentives.

One additional point: I suspect you'd see every single top player including Marro Warriors in their army. Like, every single one. MWs are easy for a less experienced player to mess up and get them caught, so not terrible for maximizing the chance to beat your army once.

[OEAO]

I basically agree with what’s been said on this format; I think it’d be quite a bit worse.

I know the format Dysole’s thinking of, and I’ve been playing it recently. The games are significantly less interesting than games with RtW armies, and it feels like a huge step down from RtW. RtW has its flaws, but it does some things extremely well. I’m not saying that the ScapeCon Championship will definitely be RtW, but until something that’s actually better comes along, I’m just not seeing a good alternative. (Note however that the actual structure of the championship may be changing- that’s about all I can say for now.)

[Arrow Grut]

Would this be a good place to ask for feedback on a few armies in RtW?

[Taeblewalker]

Originally Posted by Arrow Grut

Would this be a good place to ask for feedback on a few armies in RtW?

I would think so.

[Arrow Grut]

⁶Here's what I got.

First I got this toolbox army similar to one I brought to a tournament recently. It is better than the one I brought (Ice Troll/Feral Troll added over Tarn/Rhogar).

It draws 'em in then Kozuke activate. It is weak to longer range. Is this iteration too good? Conversely, are the range pings strong enough? Should I include a dedicated anti-range component? The Feral Troll over Rhogar (or similar like Crixus) is to weaken the army's end game. I lost once to Rhogar shrugging off 20+ WTF attacks from the 4th and bonking them all. Feral can't do that. Ice Troll is also a piece to bonk with when the enemy engages. His really low lifense makes him fragile but his bonding means easier reactivity from the army.



Arrow Gruts x2
Feral Troll x1
Ice Troll Berserker x1
Kozuke Samurai
Marcu Esenwein
Swog Rider x3
450 Points, 15 Figures, 19 Hexes
Settings: Classic, Standard Points

This is another attempt to make MC work. I went 5-0 with him at some Gencon 20XX in day 1 of main event (prior to the staggering of reverse rounds). Yeah... It was too strong. This is my attempt at weakening it and still including the consistency of Bacon. Tandros is a dedicated defender and will probably park next to Rae. The PKs are to help deal with ranged components that MC doesn't want to chase, or to screen. MC is the turret to melt melee and make things awkward.

Marcu Esenwein
Moltenclaw
Phantom Knights x1
Raelin the Kyrie Warrior (RoTV)
Tandros Kreel
460 Points, 7 Figures, 7 Hexes
Settings: Classic, Standard Points

[Chris Perkins]

Originally Posted by Arrow Grut

⁶Here's what I got.

First I got this toolbox army similar to one I brought to a tournament recently. It is better than the one I brought (Ice Troll/Feral Troll added over Tarn/Rhogar).

It draws 'em in then Kozuke activate. It is weak to longer range. Is this iteration too good? Conversely, are the range pings strong enough? Should I include a dedicated anti-range component? The Feral Troll over Rhogar (or similar like Crixus) is to weaken the army's end game. I lost once to Rhogar shrugging off 20+ WTF attacks from the 4th and bonking them all. Feral can't do that. Ice Troll is also a piece to bonk with when the enemy engages. His really low lifense makes him fragile but his bonding means easier reactivity from the army.

Arrow Gruts x2
Feral Troll x1
Ice Troll Berserker x1
Kozuke Samurai
Marcu Esenwein
Swog Rider x3
450 Points, 15 Figures, 19 Hexes
Settings: Classic, Standard Points

This is another attempt to make MC work. I went 5-0 with him at some Gencon 20XX in day 1 of main event (prior to the staggering of reverse rounds). Yeah... It was too strong. This is my attempt at weakening it and still including the consistency of Bacon. Tandros is a dedicated defender and will probably park next to Rae. The PKs are to help deal with ranged components that MC doesn't want to chase, or to screen. MC is the turret to melt melee and make things awkward.

Marcu Esenwein
Moltenclaw
Phantom Knights x1
Raelin the Kyrie Warrior (RoTV)
Tandros Kreel
460 Points, 7 Figures, 7 Hexes
Settings: Classic, Standard Points

Hard to unpack.

First off, it's worth noting that you can't really create a RtW army fully in the 'abstract'; it has to be attached to some semblance of an existing (or theoretical) meta/strength level, or the discussion is kinda moot. So, your question could be in the context of ScapeCon/GenCon RtW or some other RtW meta (if so, I don't know it and I'm not very useful).

So it's probably more productive to ignore thoughts about the 'strength' level of the armies and focus on how they play / where OMs go / difficulty level.

Army 1 (AGs):
This army feels like it needs Raelin. The key pieces just don't have good survivability on their own (Kozuke, Swogs). In terms of reducing survivability variance, I'd go Raelin over Feral Troll.

Army 2 (Molty):
PKs x1 just isn't that much of a screen. Personally, I think Dragon + Screen is harder to play than Dragon + Raelin, which makes me prefer Dragon + Screen if forced to choose between them so my opponent has harder choices. I like things like Dragon + Rats x1 + GW x1, for example. Also, PKs & Tandros don't really need Raelin too much.

Kinda short feedback, but again, hard to say too much outside the context of a specific RtW established meta. Hope it's somewhat helpful though.

[Arrow Grut]

Originally Posted by Chris Perkins

Hard to unpack.

First off, it's worth noting that you can't really create a RtW army fully in the 'abstract'; it has to be attached to some semblance of an existing (or theoretical) meta/strength level, or the discussion is kinda moot. So, your question could be in the context of ScapeCon/GenCon RtW or some other RtW meta (if so, I don't know it and I'm not very useful).

So it's probably more productive to ignore thoughts about the 'strength' level of the armies and focus on how they play / where OMs go / difficulty level.

Army 1 (AGs):
This army feels like it needs Raelin. The key pieces just don't have good survivability on their own (Kozuke, Swogs). In terms of reducing survivability variance, I'd go Raelin over Feral Troll.

Army 2 (Molty):
PKs x1 just isn't that much of a screen. Personally, I think Dragon + Screen is harder to play than Dragon + Raelin, which makes me prefer Dragon + Screen if forced to choose between them so my opponent has harder choices. I like things like Dragon + Rats x1 + GW x1, for example. Also, PKs & Tandros don't really need Raelin too much.

Kinda short feedback, but again, hard to say too much outside the context of a specific RtW established meta. Hope it's somewhat helpful though.

I really really like rats+GSW and dragon. Going to steal it. I thought rats would be too good but so long as a special attack is there 4 rats will fall.

I will playtest against arrow grut armies I'm deathly afraid of handing my opponent them with Raelin, but that might be a lack of experience. I can always exclude non-swog bonding.

Thanks for the feedback. You are right, RtW is so contextual it's hard to comment on anything without being in the scene/tournament yourself

[Dysole]

I had success with

Moltenclaw
Greenscales
Rats
Monks x2
Raelin

at Scapecon I. So it's legit viable. dok was the one who suggested Rats + Scales to fill out points and it was such a good call.

~Dysole, informationally

[Arrow Grut]

Originally Posted by Dysole

I had success with

Moltenclaw
Greenscales
Rats
Monks x2
Raelin

at Scapecon I. So it's legit viable. dok was the one who suggested Rats + Scales to fill out points and it was such a good call.

~Dysole, informationally

Oh definitely. That's a really good army for RtW with a really good pilot.

I think in RtW I'm afraid of handing my opponent rats and not getting a special attack, but your build specifically leaves plenty of room for counterplay (and mistakes) from your opponent. Plus, it seems irrational to afraid of 1x rats.

Monks are a cool power level for RtW as a sidenote too. They are a toolbox in and of themselves