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  #4597  
Old June 15th, 2021, 05:26 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

well, Agrith-Naar was officially submitted to the SoV HERE. So that card above is very outdated and one of the original versions of the unit.

As for Veguzza...I'm still hashing him out, but that card was my first version...since then I've landed on THIS version that I'm currently playtesting. That said, I'm finding that this version still doesn't play quite right...so I'm open to suggestions.
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  #4598  
Old June 15th, 2021, 08:25 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

What about the Sustained By Blood issue? Do you see it as a theme problem that it can't be sustained by the blood of enemies?

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  #4599  
Old June 15th, 2021, 08:53 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

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Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper View Post
What about the Sustained By Blood issue? Do you see it as a theme problem that it can't be sustained by the blood of enemies?
Yes I would agree, though that power did not make it onto the submitted version so....yeah.
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  #4600  
Old June 15th, 2021, 09:17 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

It might be interesting to reduce his Life to 4, and remove that requirement.

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  #4601  
Old June 16th, 2021, 03:24 AM
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Thumbs up Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape View Post
well, Agrith-Naar was officially submitted to the SoV HERE. So that card above is very outdated and one of the original versions of the unit.

As for Veguzza...I'm still hashing him out, but that card was my first version...since then I've landed on THIS version that I'm currently playtesting. That said, I'm finding that this version still doesn't play quite right...so I'm open to suggestions.
The updated Veguzza looks like a fresh rehash keeping it closer to balance but feels like a strong reversal from the original with abilities in my opinion. Going from having 2 interesting minorly complex abilities to the more basic playing style.
On second glance Taunt is a unique ability allowing for that hit on figures just out of reach and being able to pull them to a height disadvantaged space. Perhaps he does play well this way and paired with the Ravagers as the inexpensive hero option. The only only part I think could use any change is the point value being maybe just a touch low.

Last edited by SchismaticSounds; June 17th, 2021 at 03:13 AM.
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  #4602  
Old June 28th, 2021, 03:44 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Hey, I've got a pretty cool monk design that I've been tinkering with since darklands rising came out. Thought I'd share it here and see where it is at. I think this fits the tone of Monks in scape, they play to the tropes in movies a lot while still hitting Valkrill vibes. The combo invokes 1990s mortal kombat vibes for me, the name of the figure is in Chinese and translates to "blood god."

- - - - - - -

Xuè Shén
HELLSPAWN MONK



The figure used is Hellspawn Monk #008 from Darklands Rising.

CARD TEXT:
Spoiler Alert!


-Combinations and Synergies-

Synergy Benefits Received
  • SKULL DEMON : Valkrill Attack Aura 1
    As a Valkrill follower with a Range of 1, Xuè Shén may benefit from the Skull Demon's VALKRILL ATTACK AURA 1 ability
  • MORGOLOTH : Demon Leadership
    As a Demon, Xuè Shén gains one additional move if you also control Morgoloth
  • ACOLYTES OF VORGANUND : Blood Summoning/Dark Pact As a Unique Demon Hero, Xuè Shén may be chosen as a bound hero to be summoned by the Acolytes of Vorganund and may take turns with DARK PACT
  • - MASTER LAO XIN : Sifu
    As a monk hero, Xuè Shén may benefit from Master Lao Xin's SIFU activation bonus.
  • -MASTER WIN CHIU WOO : Master's Influence[/B]
    As Monk, Xuè Shén may benefit from Master Win Chiu Woo's MASTER'S INFLUENCE attack, and defense bonuses.
Synergy Benefits Offered
n/a

Last edited by Shiftrex; June 28th, 2021 at 04:42 PM.
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  #4603  
Old June 28th, 2021, 05:23 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

So far, Demons in Heroscape have been monstrous things. That doesn't mean there can't be a humanoid Demon, but my personal reaction is "bleh." There are more than enough humanoids in Heroscape that Demons don't need to do so too. But that's a personal opinion, not anything actually problematic, though it's possible others would share the sentiment.

I'm personally not thrilled by the C3V Monks. I don't have problems with them, but they fail to excite me. So my feeling here is skewed. That's arguably a compliment, as I do feel the design feels similar to other C3V Monks.

There are some timing concerns with the combination of the three powers, but nothing that can't be worked out. The interactions between the three are a plus for the design, imo.

The price tag seems exceedingly high for a 3/3 Hero. The powers have some solid potential, so maybe it's justified, but it doesn't feel like it from just a look.
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  #4604  
Old June 28th, 2021, 06:03 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Thanks for looking!

This figure was originally a 4/4 hero @ 160 but a lot of people voiced concerns that all you have to do is draft her with Master Woo and there is a large problem so some of the price tag was to account for that power spike. Price is definitely negotiable! I wouldn't mind lowering that in order to give some substantial pay off vs point investment.

For power interaction, can you explain that a bit more so I can work out the timing issues that you are noticing. I just don't understand some of the interaction on that level (though I am wanting to weave all the powers together).
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  #4605  
Old June 29th, 2021, 09:40 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiftrex View Post
For power interaction, can you explain that a bit more so I can work out the timing issues that you are noticing. I just don't understand some of the interaction on that level (though I am wanting to weave all the powers together).
It's not a problem, but it's not entirely obvious.

Xue with 2 wound markers standing next to multiple units. Attacks all of them with Whirlwind Assault. During the first attack, uses Hidden Star. Does that lower the defense of that first figure? It must not since defense dice were already rolled. Does it reduce the defense of the next figures Xue attacks? Yes, since they're each separate attacks, but I'm not sure people would know the details of the rules well enough to know that.
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  #4606  
Old July 4th, 2021, 11:29 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Personally, I don't mind a humanoid demon, albeit this one does look fairly normal when compared to something like Velkhor. I'm fine with it conceptually.

There has been internal opposition against the demon faction stacking attack penalties in the past. The easiest change there would be to limit the attack/defense penalty to when adjacent figures target/are targeted by Xué Shén, so that it can never stack with Corvor or the Skull Demon.

Mechanically, the design feels like it's hitting a weird middle-ground right now. It's powerful enough to be worth a high price for the situations where it excels, but it's also expensive enough to be disappointing when it's not drafted for those situations. -1 attack and -1 defense can really disrupt certain armies. Decreasing her upper limit against melee figures would make it easier to drop the price a bit for a more consistent experience when playing the unit.

Hidden Star is interesting as a way of trading wounds, but I'm not sure how I feel about removing the chance element of traditional attacks by outright subtracting shields after all dice are rolled. Adding automatic skulls to the attack would keep some of the trademark chance of HeroScape, and it avoids penalizing expensive figures like the cavalry units, Sentinels of Jandar, or Samurai so harshly. Mechanically, limiting it to small or medium figures as a targeted defense debuff would avoid some of the worst cases like Deathwalkers along with narrowing her focus by a decent amount.

In any case, these three powers actually do feel befitting of the high price point to me right now, even though I'd expect her to mostly underwhelm in a competitive meta. More generally, being able to guarantee a wound in the right circumstances can be very good, and coupled with the stat reduction, I suspect that she could be very frustrating for melee forces to go up against right now.
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  #4607  
Old July 4th, 2021, 01:17 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
Personally, I don't mind a humanoid demon, albeit this one does look fairly normal when compared to something like Velkhor. I'm fine with it conceptually.

There has been internal opposition against the demon faction stacking attack penalties in the past. The easiest change there would be to limit the attack/defense penalty to when adjacent figures target/are targeted by Xué Shén, so that it can never stack with Corvor or the Skull Demon.

Mechanically, the design feels like it's hitting a weird middle-ground right now. It's powerful enough to be worth a high price for the situations where it excels, but it's also expensive enough to be disappointing when it's not drafted for those situations. -1 attack and -1 defense can really disrupt certain armies. Decreasing her upper limit against melee figures would make it easier to drop the price a bit for a more consistent experience when playing the unit.

Hidden Star is interesting as a way of trading wounds, but I'm not sure how I feel about removing the chance element of traditional attacks by outright subtracting shields after all dice are rolled. Adding automatic skulls to the attack would keep some of the trademark chance of HeroScape, and it avoids penalizing expensive figures like the cavalry units, Sentinels of Jandar, or Samurai so harshly. Mechanically, limiting it to small or medium figures as a targeted defense debuff would avoid some of the worst cases like Deathwalkers along with narrowing her focus by a decent amount.

In any case, these three powers actually do feel befitting of the high price point to me right now, even though I'd expect her to mostly underwhelm in a competitive meta. More generally, being able to guarantee a wound in the right circumstances can be very good, and coupled with the stat reduction, I suspect that she could be very frustrating for melee forces to go up against right now.
Welp, I definitely wasn't trying to make a successful competitive unit. I don't think that sort of thing does well in this process.

Funny enough, CPT Stupendous argued against when I had her rolling an auto-skull because it didn't feel valkrill enough to him and it felt too similar to the other monks and he told me that it was functionally the same.

I don't mind changing the debuff to when they interact with her, at that point you're probably looking at:

As long as Xuè Shén has 3 or more wound markers, adjacent figures attacking Xuè Shén with a normal attack subtract 1 from their attack dice and figures defending against Xuè Shén subtract 1 from their defense number.

As far as frustrating, not any more than fighting the Shaolin Monks themselves right now. Despite their high price point, Master Win Choo and the Shaolin Monks already do well against melee forces due to whirlwind attacks and jump. Same goes for a monster like Corvor, that's why our price point is 140 here despite some average stats. And Xuè Shén doesn't get "tougher" to fight until she is half dead anyways, a bit of a last stand effect but not anymore impactful than the other Valkrill units with the weakening power.
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  #4608  
Old July 5th, 2021, 12:53 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiftrex View Post
Welp, I definitely wasn't trying to make a successful competitive unit. I don't think that sort of thing does well in this process.

Funny enough, CPT Stupendous argued against when I had her rolling an auto-skull because it didn't feel valkrill enough to him and it felt too similar to the other monks and he told me that it was functionally the same.
I agree that primarily aiming for making a competitive unit is a poor choice. Aiming for fun first will generally produce better results.

Ironically, I've talked with Captain Stupendous on several occasions about what "defines" each general. There's a surprising amount of depth to the gameplay personality of each general, with Ullar focusing on mobile figures, Utgar on attack, Jandar on defense, et cetera. We agreed that Valkrill's best defining mechanic right now is debuffs in the vein of Gothlok and the demons. I think that you've already covered this well with Crouching Goat; it makes Xue Shen feel very much at home under Valkrill in my eyes. In a vacuum, subtracting shields would be "more Valkrill" than adding skulls, but I don't see as much appeal when debuffing is already well-represented on the card.

There are many cases where subtracting shields is mechanically equivalent to adding skulls. This does not make the mechanics interchangeable. There are power interactions dependent on shields rolled (Warriors of Ashra, Samurai, One Shield Defense, et cetera), where shields are already "harder" to get than skulls. Being able to directly subtract shields after seeing the result is undoubtedly stronger since it avoids unnecessary wounds and risks, but it also penalizes these sorts of figures more.

Thematically, it also conveys a very different theme. With Xue Shen subtracting shields from Jotun, I'm wondering how she's managing to paralyze him or bypass his defense so thoroughly. Adding skulls is an established mechanic--like Master Lao Xin, it could represent different abstract mechanics like her being exceptionally skilled in combat, independent of her foe. The fact that it is similar to other Monk powers is not a downside; whether she plays uniquely or not is what ultimately matters. Familiarity when used well is often a positive.

Quote:
As far as frustrating, not any more than fighting the Shaolin Monks themselves right now. Despite their high price point, Master Win Choo and the Shaolin Monks already do well against melee forces due to whirlwind attacks and jump. Same goes for a monster like Corvor, that's why our price point is 140 here despite some average stats. And Xuè Shén doesn't get "tougher" to fight until she is half dead anyways, a bit of a last stand effect but not anymore impactful than the other Valkrill units with the weakening power.
Whirlwind Assault actually isn't the primary reason that I'm concerned about how it might feel for melee players to go up against her. I spent a significant amount of time playtesting various attack reduction powers for Masha Shingai, and I found that it was easy to accidentally result in some unfun scenarios with poorer low-attack melee units standing little chance of dealing damage. The fact that this power is always on once triggered is more of what makes me wary, though I'll admit that pairing it with a solid offensive figure who "bonds" and poses less risk in her best scenarios should also play a role.

In any case, this is more of a concern that I find worth noting than a strict suggestion for anything to change right now, and it isn't a concern about balance per se. Testing with a focus on how she feels to play with and against and adjusting accordingly should be enough; I'm merely pointing out such instances that I've seen in my own experiences in case they're helpful.
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