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  #25  
Old May 12th, 2019, 04:15 AM
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Re: [AotV] Pre-Brainstorming Thread

I gotta say, I do not care for the idea of the Cryptoliths being climbable, although I am tempted to support it by the possibility of a dangerous fall damage rule for someone who is on top of it when it is destroyed(For instance, damage being 1 unblockable die for Flying figures and 2 for non-flying, regardless of figure height, maybe an explosion theme... Hang on, how does... oh right. Grappling hook.). Otherwise, I like the idea of a force field giving a wall of Thorian, however I think it could also ONLY affect Special Attacks. Perhaps the Cryptoliths are even "Reality Normalizers" or "Antimagic Field Generators," and they prevent the use of Special Attacks and Powers (looking at you, Braxis) by figures 2 or fewer spaces away, while also preventing damage or destruction by the same to those within 2 spaces of it. (Is my favorite figure Kira Jax? Yes it is. Is this similar? ... maybe, so sue me)


Looking over at the firecats and phoenixes, I have suggestions for them both.

For the phoenixes. I have had an idea for a long time about a Unique version of the Obsidian Guards which sees them with a special version of The Drop:

Meteoric Elite

Utgar

Moltarn
Unique Squad (2)
Soldiers
Ferocious
Medium 5

LIFE --------1
MOVE -----4
RANGE ----1
ATTACK ---3
DEFENSE--4
Cost ----- 90

LAVA RESISTANT
This figure never has to stop its movement when entering Molten Lava and never rolls for lava field or molten lava damage.

METEORITIC IMPACT SPECIAL ATTACK
Range 1+Special, Attack 3
The Meteoritic Elite do not start the game on the battlefield. At the beginning of each round, before placing order markers, you may roll the D20. If the result is a 13 or higher, place all of the Meteoritic Elite, one at a time, on the battlefield in empty spaces of your choice. You may not place them adjacent to any glyph or to each other. Upon entering the battlefield, you must use this special attack. The Meteoritic Impact Special Attack effects all adjacent figures, including your own.

MOLTEN METEOR BLAST SPECIAL ATTACK
Range 1+Special, Attack 2
This special attack affects all figures adjacent to the attacking Meteoritic Elite figure.
If a Meteoritic Elite figure ended its normal movement in a molten lava space this turn, you may place that figure in any space within 4 clear sight spaces before using this special attack. This space may be up to 4 levels higher. If it was engaged before moving, it does not take any leaving engagement strikes.


Regrettably, the chance of finding Moltarn sculpts is... essentially zero. So it occurred to me that perhaps the phoenixes could work that way instead:



Flamesouls
Unique Squad (3)
Scouts
Relentless
Medium 4

LIFE --------1
MOVE -----7
RANGE ----1
ATTACK ---3
DEFENSE--2
Cost ----- 120

LAVA RESISTANT
This figure never has to stop its movement when entering Molten Lava and never rolls for lava field or molten lava damage.

BLAZEWING RESSURECTION SPECIAL ATTACK
Range 1+Special, Attack 3
The Blazewing Phoenixes do not start the game on the battlefield. At the beginning of each round, before placing order markers, if one or more of the Blazewing Phoenixes are not on the field, having not yet been placed or being previously destroyed, you may roll the D20. If the result is a 13 or higher, place all of those* Blazewing Phoenixes, one at a time, on the battlefield in empty spaces of your choice. You may not place them adjacent to any glyph, or to each other. Immediately after placing all of the Blazewing Phoenixes on the battlefield, you must use this special attack. The Blazewing Ressurection Special Attack effects all adjacent figures, including your own.

FLYING
You guys know the gist.

*"One of those", maybe? All of them could be... Annoying.

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  #26  
Old May 12th, 2019, 12:52 PM
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Thumbs up Re: [AotV] Pre-Brainstorming Thread

Im not against giving them Lava Resistance, but without Lava in the set it seems a bit of a waste here.

As far as a special attack version of the drop goes, that could be extremely potent as an attack, especially if it can be done early on. Maybe not as devastating as the Airborne Elite, but it can be more. Bombing the enemy Startzone before they even have a chance to react is really strong. Like, really really strong. Placing one figure at a time would be less dangerous but also less appealing Id think.

A simpler idea I had was to just one of them ressurect adjacent to each other each turn via...

Rise from Ashes
At the beginning of their turn, you may place a previously destroyed Phoenix adjacent to another Phoenix you control.

Then just give them a statline based upon how much you want them to cost.

This version also allows ressurection synergy with other Phoenixes, without letting you bring them back after all 3 are dead.

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  #27  
Old May 12th, 2019, 01:27 PM
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Re: [AotV] Pre-Brainstorming Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo Ultra View Post
I gotta say, I do not care for the idea of the Cryptoliths being climbable, although I am tempted to support it by the possibility of a dangerous fall damage rule for someone who is on top of it when it is destroyed(For instance, damage being 1 unblockable die for Flying figures and 2 for non-flying, regardless of figure height, maybe an explosion theme... Hang on, how does... oh right. Grappling hook.). Otherwise, I like the idea of a force field giving a wall of Thorian, however I think it could also ONLY affect Special Attacks. Perhaps the Cryptoliths are even "Reality Normalizers" or "Antimagic Field Generators," and they prevent the use of Special Attacks and Powers (looking at you, Braxis) by figures 2 or fewer spaces away, while also preventing damage or destruction by the same to those within 2 spaces of it. (Is my favorite figure Kira Jax? Yes it is. Is this similar? ... maybe, so sue me)
Making it only affect Special Attacks (or affect them at all, honestly) could pose a rules issue. It's something that would probably never pass VC, since there are so many different effects and methods of targeting for them. Now, what I could see us doing is making it to where figures within 2 CSS are negated and can't use any of their abilities. We'd need to specify Unique Heroes to clean up potential interactions with squads that are only partially in the aura, of course.

That's kind of touching on an idea that I was hoping to see explored with one of the sculpts in the future, though. I'll bring it up again in more detail when the proper Pod comes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo Ultra View Post
Flamesouls
Unique Squad (3)
Scouts
Relentless
Medium 4

LIFE --------1
MOVE -----7
RANGE ----1
ATTACK ---3
DEFENSE--2
Cost ----- 120

LAVA RESISTANT
This figure never has to stop its movement when entering Molten Lava and never rolls for lava field or molten lava damage.

BLAZEWING RESSURECTION SPECIAL ATTACK
Range 1+Special, Attack 3
The Blazewing Phoenixes do not start the game on the battlefield. At the beginning of each round, before placing order markers, if one or more of the Blazewing Phoenixes are not on the field, having not yet been placed or being previously destroyed, you may roll the D20. If the result is a 13 or higher, place all of those* Blazewing Phoenixes, one at a time, on the battlefield in empty spaces of your choice. You may not place them adjacent to any glyph, or to each other. Immediately after placing all of the Blazewing Phoenixes on the battlefield, you must use this special attack. The Blazewing Ressurection Special Attack effects all adjacent figures, including your own.

FLYING
You guys know the gist.

*"One of those", maybe? All of them could be... Annoying.
Lava Resistant doesn't bother me, but the complexity of the Special Attack does. I would suggest splitting it up into two powers, the Special Attack that targets all adjacent figures, and a revival power that requires you to use the Special Attack after they're summoned. That feels like it would be more digestible to me. Of course, then you're at four explicit powers, which isn't something that many designers are keen on doing, so something might need to give in that case.

On a minor thematic note, I do want us to use the theme of pheonixes rising from the ashes, since its such an iconic part of their myth. The Special Attack here could still work with that theme in my eyes, but it's worth noting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by flameslayer93 View Post
Rise from Ashes
At the beginning of their turn, you may place a previously destroyed Phoenix adjacent to another Phoenix you control.
We don't know C3V's plans, but it is likely that they are making a Unique Pheonix hero from the announced list of miniatures that they'll be using. I'm not opposed to leaving room for synergy between the two, but adding a revival mechanism for it doesn't sound like a great idea. I'd propose flipping this synergy a bit:

Quote:
Rise from the Ashes
Before taking a turn with a Pheonix Hero or Squad that you control, you may place one previously destroyed PHEONIX SQUAD NAME adjacent to any Pheonix that you control.
That lets the big pheonix revive our squad, but not the other way around. It's also pretty easy to add an Order Marker restriction without changing the design, in case it's necessary.
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  #28  
Old May 12th, 2019, 01:35 PM
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Re: [AotV] Pre-Brainstorming Thread

Whoops! My version was not intended to bring back the big Phoenix, just the little Phoenixes.

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  #29  
Old May 12th, 2019, 01:48 PM
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Re: [AotV] Pre-Brainstorming Thread

Ah, I see! It looks like we're on the same page, then.
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  #30  
Old May 12th, 2019, 03:51 PM
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Re: [AotV] Pre-Brainstorming Thread

Regarding Cryptoliths, I still question the implementation of any sort of aura or buff that is not strongly or obviously communicated by the sculpt. Terrain and DO effects should be understated and easy to remember; I'd prefer to avoid situations where players will have to keep checking the rules to remember what kind of defensive buff they give at what range and against what attacks. This problem would be mitigated somewhat by making them DOs with their own card, but even then I would prefer a simpler, more obvious direction.

I understand the complaints about just re-using the climbing rules, though. I wouldn't mind using them if they were alongside some sort of negative power for units on or near the DO when it's destroyed. Something like C3G's Evergreen Tree DOs could work here, where the falling Cryptolith can hurt figures standing on or nearby it. This would put a risk/reward aspect to standing on the cryptolith and for clustering protective figures around it.
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  #31  
Old May 12th, 2019, 03:55 PM
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Re: [AotV] Pre-Brainstorming Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Your Pie View Post
Regarding Cryptoliths, I still question the implementation of any sort of aura or buff that is not strongly or obviously communicated by the sculpt. Terrain and DO effects should be understated and easy to remember; I'd prefer to avoid situations where players will have to keep checking the rules to remember what kind of defensive buff they give at what range and against what attacks. This problem would be mitigated somewhat by making them DOs with their own card, but even then I would prefer a simpler, more obvious direction.

I understand the complaints about just re-using the climbing rules, though. I wouldn't mind using them if they were alongside some sort of negative power for units on or near the DO when it's destroyed. Something like C3G's Evergreen Tree DOs could work here, where the falling Cryptolith can hurt figures standing on or nearby it. This would put a risk/reward aspect to standing on the cryptolith and for clustering protective figures around it.
1-2 wounds for a perched Raelin is a huge joke though.

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  #32  
Old May 12th, 2019, 04:10 PM
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Re: [AotV] Pre-Brainstorming Thread

Quote:
BLAZEWING RESSURECTION SPECIAL ATTACK
Range 1+Special, Attack 3
The Blazewing Phoenixes do not start the game on the battlefield. At the beginning of each round, before placing order markers, if one or more of the Blazewing Phoenixes are not on the field, having not yet been placed or being previously destroyed, you may roll the D20. If the result is a 13 or higher, place all of those* Blazewing Phoenixes, one at a time, on the battlefield in empty spaces of your choice. You may not place them adjacent to any glyph, or to each other. Immediately after placing all of the Blazewing Phoenixes on the battlefield, you must use this special attack. The Blazewing Ressurection Special Attack effects all adjacent figures, including your own
I like this, it being unique and thematic. One concern that I had was with the timing of the special attack, since it happens at the beginning of each round, before placing order markers. I could be wrong, but I don't think there's any precedent for a special attack occurring outside of a units normal turn, which could pose some rules problems, especially in what is supposed to be an introductory Master Set.

Quote:
Illusory Attack felt a bit weird initially to me (as did 4 attack), but it actually fits the idea of illusions really well. Getting one solid attack out of them before the illusion is shattered is a very unique idea.

Pricing them is especially difficult because of the movement boost given to Sonlen and (presumably) Jace. Initially it won't be very much, but the ability to swap your Archmage back to your starting zone after dealing some damage to heal back up sounds like it could be a slight problem, especially since you probably don't want more than one illusion in the fray at a time.

Perhaps changing Projected Image to trigger before or after taking a turn with the illusions rather than the Archmage could help.
Thanks Astroking! I really do like how the attack conveys the theme of a unit defending off multiple attacks that turn out to be just illusions, before being hit by the one "real" attack. Regarding the range and attack of 6 and 4, I chose those to mirror Sonlen's range and attack to further reinforce the idea that all but one of them are simply projections of the "real" Archmage. I also like how their attacks are more effective against enemies with high defense and low life which opens up some tactical considerations.

Regarding the possibility of making it so that the repositioning happens before or after their turn, I could definitely see that working. However, one thing that I like about letting the reposition happen before the Archmage's turn is that it would give Sonlen more opportunities to use his Dragon Healing on friendly allies that would otherwise be out of range at the start of his turn.

I'm still mulling over possible abilities for the Jace figure. I've considered allowing him to bring defeated Illusions back to life (which would be cool but also potentially problematic and overpowered), as well as a power that would let him destroy friendly Illusions to ignore wounds from normal attacks.
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  #33  
Old May 12th, 2019, 05:59 PM
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Re: [AotV] Pre-Brainstorming Thread

There was a version of the Illusions posted in discord that I loved. I think NB posted it. Once the tread is up Id like to see that draft there.
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  #34  
Old May 12th, 2019, 08:14 PM
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Re: [AotV] Pre-Brainstorming Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pumpkin_King View Post
There was a version of the Illusions posted in discord that I loved. I think NB posted it. Once the tread is up Id like to see that draft there.
Yes, I hope to see whoever the Project Leads are for each Pod post whatever previous ideas we've had to get those units started.

The cryptoliths need to stay simple (it's a Master Set after all). I look forward to testing everything from a simple port to force fields and more.

Same for the Phoenixes. There are some interesting ideas, but we still want something easy to understand and not break something like out-of-turn attacking. Lava Resistance I don't have a problem with; no, there isn't any terrain in the set, but Grimnak was ready to boost Blade Gruts before they (publicly) existed.

Links for the second post:
Lantern Geists
Leyline Phantoms
Jace, Investigator

317-149
C3V Brainstorm
Pepperony - 14/09/13
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  #35  
Old May 13th, 2019, 12:19 AM
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Re: [AotV] Pre-Brainstorming Thread

Another idea for the Cryptoliths could be using them as teleportation beacons. When you end your movement adjacent to one, you can place that figure on any empty space adjacent to another Cryptolith. That's straightforward to remember, and it's easy to tie them together visually.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Stupendous View Post
Regarding the possibility of making it so that the repositioning happens before or after their turn, I could definitely see that working. However, one thing that I like about letting the reposition happen before the Archmage's turn is that it would give Sonlen more opportunities to use his Dragon Healing on friendly allies that would otherwise be out of range at the start of his turn.

I'm still mulling over possible abilities for the Jace figure. I've considered allowing him to bring defeated Illusions back to life (which would be cool but also potentially problematic and overpowered), as well as a power that would let him destroy friendly Illusions to ignore wounds from normal attacks.
I'm still concerned about the movement boost that Sonlen would be getting. It feels like it would be very powerful, although perhaps it would be counterbalanced by the unreliability of Sonlen's rolls.

Jace being able to revive illusions is tempting, but it would likely be a deathknell to using them with Sonlen unless they are cheap enough to take both in the same army, and there is a good reason to do so. That's a very powerful synergy, that would warrant the figures almost always being taken together.
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  #36  
Old May 13th, 2019, 11:18 AM
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Re: [AotV] Pre-Brainstorming Thread

I've updated the list of units with links to their respective workshop threads (thanks for posting them here, @NecroBlade !) as well as 's containing the links to their images on discord.

Thanks to @LoveElemental for helping me finish the images up!

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