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  #193  
Old November 17th, 2019, 02:22 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] Velnesh Alphas (Leyline Phantoms) - Editing

Interestingly they can take glyphs with Blink, but I'm less worried about that since the opponent has some control over it and that figure is about to be attacked anyway. I think the only time they could be targeted then not attacked is by the M-43s, in which case if the opponent really wants to give you free movement, that's their problem.

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  #194  
Old November 18th, 2019, 02:53 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] Velnesh Alphas (Leyline Phantoms) - Editing

Since there is no review process for these (as far as I can tell), I'll give a critique now. Ignore if you choose.

This is a great design lost in a merely good one. The problem is a lack of minimization, which is all the more important with the target audience. This unit would be really interesting with either power. It doesn't need both. It's not that either power is complicated or unthematic, it's that having both is unnecessary. It does not need both powers either thematically or in gameplay; they exist independently.

That in itself isn't a bad thing, but in this case they are both teleportation powers. Two powers that are similar in a lot of ways, yet entirely different on when and how they are used. To a player that isn't trying to memorize every card (and that's how casual players are, and even some tournament ones), it becomes muddled. Instead a unit that "teleports as they move" or "teleport when you try to shoot them," it becomes "a unit that teleports around all the time," and they stop trying to figure out the whens and whys. The differences are too much to keep track of on a quick reading, and get glossed over. When that happens, they stop trying to play around them strategically, and just deal with whatever they do.
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  #195  
Old November 18th, 2019, 04:45 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] Velnesh Alphas (Leyline Phantoms) - Editing

Hmmm.

That's persuasive. I wonder if we can get away with (maybe even buffed by 1 move) Blink and Evasive 2?
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  #196  
Old November 18th, 2019, 07:06 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] Velnesh Alphas (Leyline Phantoms) - Editing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scytale View Post
Since there is no review process for these (as far as I can tell), I'll give a critique now. Ignore if you choose.
Looks like Final Review is the closest spot, and that's after playtesting, so I think that now is as good of a time as any to bring up criticisms.

Quote:
This is a great design lost in a merely good one. The problem is a lack of minimization, which is all the more important with the target audience. This unit would be really interesting with either power. It doesn't need both. It's not that either power is complicated or unthematic, it's that having both is unnecessary. It does not need both powers either thematically or in gameplay; they exist independently.

That in itself isn't a bad thing, but in this case they are both teleportation powers. Two powers that are similar in a lot of ways, yet entirely different on when and how they are used. To a player that isn't trying to memorize every card (and that's how casual players are, and even some tournament ones), it becomes muddled. Instead a unit that "teleports as they move" or "teleport when you try to shoot them," it becomes "a unit that teleports around all the time," and they stop trying to figure out the whens and whys. The differences are too much to keep track of on a quick reading, and get glossed over. When that happens, they stop trying to play around them strategically, and just deal with whatever they do.
Hmm. I was actually thinking that the loop of "Get Targeted" > "Teleport Adjacent" > "Shift Past Attacker Next Turn to Hit Target" would be prominent, but you have a good point here. I could easily see new opponents not fully understanding what the purpose of the card is beyond some vague idea of teleportation, lessening the cool factor.

Part of the problem that I see with just cutting one of these powers is that neither make for a particularly compelling design on their own. Shift is a limited Disengage with a bit of potential for going through walls, and Blink is unique but only situationally useful.

Shift does become a lot more compelling at 3 move--I could see that as a single power design. It's a bit more limited in just our set, but being able to Shift to the top of a Pillar of Hár or past a screen makes them feel a bit more unique.
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  #197  
Old November 18th, 2019, 07:09 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] Velnesh Alphas (Leyline Phantoms) - Editing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scytale View Post
Since there is no review process for these (as far as I can tell), I'll give a critique now. Ignore if you choose.

This is a great design lost in a merely good one. The problem is a lack of minimization, which is all the more important with the target audience. This unit would be really interesting with either power. It doesn't need both. It's not that either power is complicated or unthematic, it's that having both is unnecessary. It does not need both powers either thematically or in gameplay; they exist independently.

That in itself isn't a bad thing, but in this case they are both teleportation powers. Two powers that are similar in a lot of ways, yet entirely different on when and how they are used. To a player that isn't trying to memorize every card (and that's how casual players are, and even some tournament ones), it becomes muddled. Instead a unit that "teleports as they move" or "teleport when you try to shoot them," it becomes "a unit that teleports around all the time," and they stop trying to figure out the whens and whys. The differences are too much to keep track of on a quick reading, and get glossed over. When that happens, they stop trying to play around them strategically, and just deal with whatever they do.

*let me just preface this by saying that I'm not actually a member of this pod, just an interested observer who's been following this thread pretty closely, so these are just my two cents for what they're worth*

To some extent I agree with you. Personally I would prefer for SHIFT to only be usable before moving, instead of before or after. However, I also think that the powers work together and interact mechanically quite well. Specifically, using SHIFT before movement will allow the Velnesh experiments to disengage from enemies that they have previously blinked to. Because of how Blink works, they'll often find themselves engaged with enemy figures that they might not necessarily want to attack, and in this way SHIFT complements BLINK quite well.

One possible solution would be to replace SHIFT with PHANTOM WALK, which is something that was actually discussed early in the design process. However, I and several others felt like their statline combined with PHANTOM WALK and the movement-based defensive ability would make them too similar to the ninjas of the northern wind.

If anything, I think that just dropping SHIFT altogether could work for this unit, although it would make them much weaker and harder to use effectively due to being easily tied down, which isn't necessarily a bad thing.

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  #198  
Old November 18th, 2019, 07:17 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] Velnesh Alphas (Leyline Phantoms) - Editing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pumpkin_King View Post
Hmmm.

That's persuasive. I wonder if we can get away with (maybe even buffed by 1 move) Blink and Evasive 2?
Did you mean Shift and Evasive 2? I'm not sure what the point would be of combining Blink and Evasive; unless I'm missing something obvious they'd hardly ever get their Evasive bonus because they'd always Blink adjacent to the attacker first...
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  #199  
Old November 18th, 2019, 07:39 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] Velnesh Alphas (Leyline Phantoms) - Editing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
Part of the problem that I see with just cutting one of these powers is that neither make for a particularly compelling design on their own. Shift is a limited Disengage with a bit of potential for going through walls, and Blink is unique but only situationally useful.
You vastly underestimate the value of Shift. Shifting past enemy units to the backline, shifting up cliffs and tower walls, shifting out of engagement to go after prime targets, or just shifting to height for better placement. All of these things are amazing and adapts to multiple playstyles. Just allowing it before or after movement instead of both makes for an interesting, valuable power. Allowing both is just wild.
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  #200  
Old November 18th, 2019, 09:12 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] Velnesh Alphas (Leyline Phantoms) - Editing

They are a unique squad though - which lends itself better to strong, unique power sets. I feel like shift alone becomes too similar to Stealth Flying. I find both powers together intriguing and adding uniqueness.

Last edited by bmon; November 18th, 2019 at 09:13 PM. Reason: Said blink but meant shift
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  #201  
Old November 18th, 2019, 09:35 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] Velnesh Alphas (Leyline Phantoms) - Editing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scytale View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
Part of the problem that I see with just cutting one of these powers is that neither make for a particularly compelling design on their own. Shift is a limited Disengage with a bit of potential for going through walls, and Blink is unique but only situationally useful.
You vastly underestimate the value of Shift. Shifting past enemy units to the backline, shifting up cliffs and tower walls, shifting out of engagement to go after prime targets, or just shifting to height for better placement. All of these things are amazing and adapts to multiple playstyles. Just allowing it before or after movement instead of both makes for an interesting, valuable power. Allowing both is just wild.
I think that it's a useful power, but I am concerned that when taken alone it is essentially akin to just a more limited Phantom Walk (especially without too many walls and towers). We probably won't have another Ninjas of the Northern Wind-like design in this set, but there's still some significant overlap there that we should be addressing. If we're certain that just Shift alone will play significantly differently enough to let both squads stay distinct, then I'm perfectly content to explore that. My hunch is just that Shift alone isn't enough to actually play differently.
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  #202  
Old November 19th, 2019, 04:37 AM
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Re: [Pod 0] Velnesh Alphas (Leyline Phantoms) - Editing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Stupendous View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pumpkin_King View Post
Hmmm.

That's persuasive. I wonder if we can get away with (maybe even buffed by 1 move) Blink and Evasive 2?
Did you mean Shift and Evasive 2? I'm not sure what the point would be of combining Blink and Evasive; unless I'm missing something obvious they'd hardly ever get their Evasive bonus because they'd always Blink adjacent to the attacker first...
My bad, yeah. I meant Shift and Evasive.

I think if we dropped and/or replaced either power it would be Blink. I’m not quite convinced we need to do that, yet. Scy, do you think your hesitation with both powers could be solved by renaming one or both of them to differentiate them?
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  #203  
Old November 19th, 2019, 07:15 AM
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Re: [Pod 0] Velnesh Alphas (Leyline Phantoms) - Editing

I suspect Scy’s hesitation comes from the mechanics rather than the name.

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  #204  
Old November 19th, 2019, 10:06 AM
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Re: [Pod 0] Velnesh Alphas (Leyline Phantoms) - Editing

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Originally Posted by flameslayer93 View Post
I suspect Scy’s hesitation comes from the mechanics rather than the name.
Right. Two different teleport powers on the same unit muddles both, regardless of their names. "They teleport when ..." and "they also teleport when ..." becomes "they teleport a lot" to people who don't care much about the details. Compare that to "they teleport before or after they move, and they're harder to hit from range."
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