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  #37  
Old November 14th, 2019, 04:45 PM
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Re: How will C3V units affect the Metagame?



Well met!

Actually, playing to the clock is part of a Grandmaster's toolbox. But there is a point of diminishing returns. If Heroscape tournaments used Chess clocks, for instance, limiting each player to half the total time of the match, stalling might be made moot.






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  #38  
Old November 14th, 2019, 04:53 PM
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Re: How will C3V units affect the Metagame?

Readers should be mindful that, in the real world of competitive Heroscape, there is not a person who actively sets out to "clock" an opponent. The only time I have ever heard of this is KD's post, above, about a local event he attended, and - as KD described it - that abuse of the spirit of the game was corrected by the outrage of other attendees at the same event. I cannot say, off the top of my head, how many dozens of tournaments I have run or attended, but I can say it's been many, and I have never seen that happen even one time.

So, if you happen to be a lurker or simply a poster wondering what your local scene is like, please fear not. Nobody will try to run your time out. You will meet nice people who are happy to see you, and you will have a good time.

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  #39  
Old November 14th, 2019, 05:00 PM
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Re: How will C3V units affect the Metagame?

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Originally Posted by kolakoski View Post
Actually, playing to the clock is part of a Grandmaster's toolbox. But there is a point of diminishing returns. If Heroscape tournaments used Chess clocks, for instance, limiting each player to half the total time of the match, stalling might be made moot.
As D_S notes: crazy anecdotes from 8 years ago aside, stalling is already largely moot. It's not something I've seen wielded as an intentional tactic to game a win on time, ever.

That said, we have put in time rules for online play. We put them in because despite not having a round limit to play against, there's a limit to how much time a player should be expected to wait for their opponent. That, plus stalemate rules, give us ways to enforce an end to games that could (and, in a couple rare occasions, did) go on for too long.

The online game timer operates on a more complex set of rules than you might expect, due to the amount of back and forth interaction that happens on a turn in Heroscape. A straight chess clock would actually be pretty annoying to use in live Heroscape.

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  #40  
Old November 14th, 2019, 05:05 PM
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Re: How will C3V units affect the Metagame?

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Originally Posted by dok View Post
A straight chess clock would actually be pretty annoying to use in live Heroscape.
As a guy who has run both 'Scape and chess tournaments, I will say that chess clocks would be impossible to use in live Heroscape, without shattering the landscape in ways that have nothing to do with the objective effectiveness of units or the skill of the players.

The thing is, in chess, what you're doing is pretty straightforward. Handling one piece or, in some situations (capturing or castling), two. In Heroscape, conversely, you are handling *multiple* pieces on the board, plus some number of dice, plus your opponent is handling dice, and of course you are considering issues such as line of sight and then there are the battlements and trees getting knocked over.

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  #41  
Old November 14th, 2019, 05:08 PM
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Re: How will C3V units affect the Metagame?

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Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper View Post
Readers should be mindful that, in the real world of competitive Heroscape, there is not a person who actively sets out to "clock" an opponent. The only time I have ever heard of this is KD's post, above, about a local event he attended, and - as KD described it - that abuse of the spirit of the game was corrected by the outrage of other attendees at the same event. I cannot say, off the top of my head, how many dozens of tournaments I have run or attended, but I can say it's been many, and I have never seen that happen even one time.

So, if you happen to be a lurker or simply a poster wondering what your local scene is like, please fear not. Nobody will try to run your time out. You will meet nice people who are happy to see you, and you will have a good time.
Having played Magic years ago and D&D Minis as well as a few other tournament formatted games I agree that the vast majority of players are not the type that is out there to run out the clock. There will always be outliers of course and it can happen as I've seen it. Luckily I've not run into this in Heroscape either but I play more casual game days with that than straight up tourneys anymore. I have more fun and actually win more games when it's just for entertainment anyway.

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  #42  
Old November 14th, 2019, 05:10 PM
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Re: How will C3V units affect the Metagame?

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Originally Posted by dok View Post
First, bolded for emphasis in my earlier message.

Honestly, it's a bit silly to say it plays no sort of role in your army-selection decisions. After all, at least pre-2017, you wouldn't have played an army that has a major problem with bleeding points early and then losing on time. Saying the army is highly resistant to that problem is just the converse of that. (Note, again, that I phrased it as "not vulnerable to slow play from your opponent", not "designed to win on time".)

For my part, despite not playing these sorts of 1x squad armies (unless you count 1x glads), I have considered how sensitive my main event army is to the time limits every year. It's why, for example, I never played Marro Warriors before 2017 (very strong on day 2, didn't always get to use that value on day 1). (I haven't played MW in the last three years either, but I'm no longer opposed to them on principle.)
I can honestly say I don't consider time limits when building armies. I finish probably 98% of my tournament games. I actually brought armies similar to what I currently bring back in the day (2013: 2x PKs, 2x WoA, Concan, Eltahale; 2015: Nakita, Krav, Skahen, Otonashi, Raelin). Every one of those games finished, and every main event game I've played in the last few years have finished too.

I also don't play MW, but that's simply because I think they're too strong in competent hands.
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  #43  
Old November 14th, 2019, 05:18 PM
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Re: How will C3V units affect the Metagame?

OK, well, you're weird. I've certainly heard discussions about the value of unique squads and 1xmezzos w.r.t. the time limit.

I've had several games go to the time limit in the main event over the years, although it's less than one a year on average. I don't believe I've ever been the slower player in a game that went to time.

(I definitely don't win the title in 2017 without an absurd Marro Warrior run in the semifinals. They are crazy.)

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  #44  
Old November 14th, 2019, 05:24 PM
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Re: How will C3V units affect the Metagame?

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Originally Posted by dok View Post
OK, well, you're weird. I've certainly heard discussions about the value of unique squads and 1xmezzos w.r.t. the time limit.

I've had several games go to the time limit in the main event over the years, although it's less than one a year on average. I don't believe I've ever been the slower player in a game that went to time.

(I definitely don't win the title in 2017 without an absurd Marro Warrior run in the semifinals. They are crazy.)
Lol, that may be true. I'm sure that's something some people consider (which is why I'm only talking for myself here). I think the value of 1x Mezzos is just in the power level of usually needing to take three casualties before losing an attack and the board control that offers; I think William at least is in the same boat as me for that. I've always been in Ken's camp where we don't really go to time, so we don't really think about it.

I remember that game. MWs just sometimes go off.
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  #45  
Old November 14th, 2019, 05:38 PM
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Re: How will C3V units affect the Metagame?

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Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper View Post
So, if you happen to be a lurker or simply a poster wondering what your local scene is like, please fear not. Nobody will try to run your time out. You will meet nice people who are happy to see you, and you will have a good time.
Some people might even forfeit their match when they only have Deathreavers vs your Dwarves simply because they want to play the game.

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  #46  
Old November 14th, 2019, 05:52 PM
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Re: How will C3V units affect the Metagame?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper View Post
Readers should be mindful that, in the real world of competitive Heroscape, there is not a person who actively sets out to "clock" an opponent. The only time I have ever heard of this is KD's post, above, about a local event he attended, and - as KD described it - that abuse of the spirit of the game was corrected by the outrage of other attendees at the same event. I cannot say, off the top of my head, how many dozens of tournaments I have run or attended, but I can say it's been many, and I have never seen that happen even one time.

So, if you happen to be a lurker or simply a poster wondering what your local scene is like, please fear not. Nobody will try to run your time out. You will meet nice people who are happy to see you, and you will have a good time.
I want to really emphasize how great this community is. You don't have to worry about people being jerks at your local tournaments or at GenCon. This community is (by far) the best I've had the pleasure of being part of. If you're lurking, make the effort to meet the great people in this community; it's guaranteed to be a good time.
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  #47  
Old November 15th, 2019, 11:06 AM
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Re: How will C3V units affect the Metagame?

Quote:
Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper View Post
Readers should be mindful that, in the real world of competitive Heroscape, there is not a person who actively sets out to "clock" an opponent. The only time I have ever heard of this is KD's post, above, about a local event he attended, and - as KD described it - that abuse of the spirit of the game was corrected by the outrage of other attendees at the same event. I cannot say, off the top of my head, how many dozens of tournaments I have run or attended, but I can say it's been many, and I have never seen that happen even one time.

So, if you happen to be a lurker or simply a poster wondering what your local scene is like, please fear not. Nobody will try to run your time out. You will meet nice people who are happy to see you, and you will have a good time.
I want to really emphasize how great this community is. You don't have to worry about people being jerks at your local tournaments or at GenCon. This community is (by far) the best I've had the pleasure of being part of. If you're lurking, make the effort to meet the great people in this community; it's guaranteed to be a good time.
I can't give you +Rep right now but I want to reinforce what you just said. Heroscapers are consistently a fantastic community; drop into a tournament anywhere as a total stranger and you'll be welcomed and have a great time.

Your custom probably has too much Defense.

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  #48  
Old November 15th, 2019, 04:02 PM
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Re: How will C3V units affect the Metagame?

On this topic, if Gencon organizers wanted to enforce the clock, @Infected Sloth might have lost to @Matthias Maccabeus in the semi-finals (I heard that game took >3 hours) but our esteemed players were willing to sit it out. Although I have had a few games end on time that most likely could have gone otherwise if we played longer, I have only once felt this was deliberate, but even then they "ran around the board" during their turn, and did not play slower or sit and wait. But on to the topic at hand:

In Dayton I played a couple tournaments well using C3V/SoV figs and it angered a few players as they though what I or others brought was overpowered (not just my skills at the game ) but I may have gamed the system a little in some of the formats knowing that some C3V armies would do better. Since most people there are new to heroscape and only a few people there frequent Heroscapers I think they were just surprised by them.

I think a lot depends on the scene though. At Louisville a lot of the players there have been playing for awhile and are pretty familiar with C3V/SoC (ahem @NecroBlade ) so people are not afraid to bring the stronger C3V/SoV based armies. I do feel that it has slightly changed even what people bring when it does not contain custom scape - more multi-attackers or ways to counter multi-attackers. Overall I think it good. Can't wait till Gencon has an official even that allows C3V/SoV.
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