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  #85  
Old November 8th, 2019, 09:41 AM
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Re: Casters of Valhalla

Great to have a 'scape podcast! Enjoyed it so far. One major complaint, though: @OrcElfArmyOne severely mispronounced his own name at the beginning.

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  #86  
Old November 8th, 2019, 10:18 AM
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Re: Casters of Valhalla

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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
I was thinking we were talking all Stingers, or Stingers + a hero. Maybe Raelin, but I remember when Raelin was thrown in the discussion changed a bit so I think we were initially assuming without her. I personally wasn’t thinking Stingers + Rats, I think that’s a different army. But all are good imo. I like running each of those.

Also I wasn’t vocal in the cast when we briefly mentioned Draining. I actually don’t think I’m in the never-Drain camp anymore, or very-rarely-Drain camp, which is almost one and the same. I’ve done a little bit of experimenting with Draining frequently and it’s really interesting, it’s kind of like you build up tension on the sacrifice turns and strike back hard enough later to make up for it and often get more out of it. Like, you sacrifice position, give it to your opponent, and then destroy their position harder so it’s a net win. At least that’s how it’s felt in the few games I’ve consciously been testing it. Still need to play with it much more but I think Draining is worth looking into. Obviously there are times when you really shouldn’t and really should, but there’s quite a lot of grey area in between that’s up for consideration which usually gets dismissed. Raelin does help too.

I think I don’t put the Stingers with 4th Mass/Q9 in the too straightforward and boring category because of Draining...but never/rarely-Drain Stingers probably fall into that.
And this is why my win percentage against stingers is in the high 90s.

I would absolutely love for you to drain every turn. I actually encourage my opponent's to drain. It's worked out well for me so far.

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Last edited by Matthias Maccabeus; November 8th, 2019 at 10:50 AM. Reason: Sir Gilbert's battle cry, "Drain!, Drain!"
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  #87  
Old November 8th, 2019, 10:38 AM
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Re: Casters of Valhalla

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthias Maccabeus View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
I was thinking we were talking all Stingers, or Stingers + a hero. Maybe Raelin, but I remember when Raelin was thrown in the discussion changed a bit so I think we were initially assuming without her. I personally wasnít thinking Stingers + Rats, I think thatís a different army. But all are good imo. I like running each of those.

Also I wasnít vocal in the cast when we briefly mentioned Draining. I actually donít think Iím in the never-Drain camp anymore, or very-rarely-Drain camp, which is almost one and the same. Iíve done a little bit of experimenting with Draining frequently and itís really interesting, itís kind of like you build up tension on the sacrifice turns and strike back hard enough later to make up for it and often get more out of it. Like, you sacrifice position, give it to your opponent, and then destroy their position harder so itís a net win. At least thatís how itís felt in the few games Iíve consciously been testing it. Still need to play with it much more but I think Draining is worth looking into. Obviously there are times when you really shouldnít and really should, but thereís quite a lot of grey area in between thatís up for consideration which usually gets dismissed. Raelin does help too.

I think I donít put the Stingers with 4th Mass/Q9 in the too straightforward and boring category because of Draining...but never/rarely-Drain Stingers probably fall into that.
And this is why my win percentage against stingers is in the high 90s.

I would absolutely love for you to drain every turn. I actually encourage my opponent's to drain. It's worked out well for me so far.
Drain depends too much on what your opponent has.

If my opponent has low point squads like Blade/Arrow Gruts or Spiders, I probably never drain.

If my opponent has Q9 on height, I probably drain every single turn. 3 attack isn't enough there, so if I lose a turn it doesn't really hurt me much (on the assumption that 3 attack would not have done damage anyways).

I.e. Draining is the better route when the probability of getting a wound off of just 3 dice is low enough that the turn itself will probably do nothing positive if you do not drain.

What that cutoff probability is, though, is certainly debatable.
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  #88  
Old November 8th, 2019, 10:45 AM
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Re: Casters of Valhalla

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Perkins View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthias Maccabeus View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
I was thinking we were talking all Stingers, or Stingers + a hero. Maybe Raelin, but I remember when Raelin was thrown in the discussion changed a bit so I think we were initially assuming without her. I personally wasn’t thinking Stingers + Rats, I think that’s a different army. But all are good imo. I like running each of those.

Also I wasn’t vocal in the cast when we briefly mentioned Draining. I actually don’t think I’m in the never-Drain camp anymore, or very-rarely-Drain camp, which is almost one and the same. I’ve done a little bit of experimenting with Draining frequently and it’s really interesting, it’s kind of like you build up tension on the sacrifice turns and strike back hard enough later to make up for it and often get more out of it. Like, you sacrifice position, give it to your opponent, and then destroy their position harder so it’s a net win. At least that’s how it’s felt in the few games I’ve consciously been testing it. Still need to play with it much more but I think Draining is worth looking into. Obviously there are times when you really shouldn’t and really should, but there’s quite a lot of grey area in between that’s up for consideration which usually gets dismissed. Raelin does help too.

I think I don’t put the Stingers with 4th Mass/Q9 in the too straightforward and boring category because of Draining...but never/rarely-Drain Stingers probably fall into that.
And this is why my win percentage against stingers is in the high 90s.

I would absolutely love for you to drain every turn. I actually encourage my opponent's to drain. It's worked out well for me so far.
Drain depends too much on what your opponent has.

If my opponent has low point squads like Blade/Arrow Gruts or Spiders, I probably never drain.

If my opponent has Q9 on height, I probably drain every single turn. 3 attack isn't enough there, so if I lose a turn it doesn't really hurt me much (on the assumption that 3 attack would not have done damage anyways).

I.e. Draining is the better route when the probability of getting a wound off of just 3 dice is low enough that the turn itself will probably do nothing positive if you do not drain.

What that cutoff probability is, though, is certainly debatable.
A guaranteed 3 attacks of 3 is worse than a chance to have 0 attacks of any number and lose a figure? (All things being equal. Yes if you're way behind I think drain would be appropriate in this particular situation. But if you're even or ahead I don't even think it's close).

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Last edited by Matthias Maccabeus; November 8th, 2019 at 10:51 AM. Reason: If you're even and whiff, you are now behind and are forcing the drain issue.
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  #89  
Old November 8th, 2019, 10:47 AM
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My Basic Strategy

Am I facing something with a lot of defense that I need to kill either this turn or within the next few turns to have a good chance at winning and is my position not likely to improve? Drain.

Beyond that, I usually don't. 3 attacks of 3/4 is usually good enough to kill everything. I remember an opponent running DCs (admittedly not the ideal DC army) through my stingers and we quickly called it a meat grinder. I don't think I rolled for drain once there.

~Dysole, noting that she's also pretty risk averse (but also loves rolling d20s...)

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  #90  
Old November 8th, 2019, 01:09 PM
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Re: Casters of Valhalla

55% chance of getting +1 attack die is pretty great. Sure there's risk...but lots of Heroscape units have risk. Admittedly some of the better players and units mitigate the amount of risks you take in a game i.e. never draining...but it's my experience that risks can be the deciding factor in pushing you from behind back in front or from even to clearly in the front. If you're already ahead, sure don't drain, but Stingers, at least in the Utah meta, have always been strong and I think are definitely a powerhouse of a unit to deal with.
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  #91  
Old November 8th, 2019, 01:39 PM
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Brain Drain

At the same time, no drain gives you 9 dice. (Assuming no height) Drain gives you 8.85 dice on average. (12 vs 11.8 if all have height).

This is why I only drain if I need the variance. The risk isn't worth it on a vanilla turn.

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  #92  
Old November 8th, 2019, 02:08 PM
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Re: Casters of Valhalla

Quote:
Originally Posted by NecroBlade View Post
Great to have a 'scape podcast! Enjoyed it so far. One major complaint, though: @OrcElfArmyOne severely mispronounced his own name at the beginning.
Lol, Iíll be sure to correct this atrocity next episode.
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  #93  
Old November 8th, 2019, 02:14 PM
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Re: Casters of Valhalla

My take on Stinger Drain:

I don’t think you should really ever do it, unless you’re so far behind that you need variance to have a chance. I actually think that people would play better with Stingers overall if they were just a blank card. Losing a turn and 20 points is devastating, so unless you’re behind enough where you need the positive variance to save you, don’t drain. I think a lot of the reason why people drain is actually in response to poor play patterns; they mess up early and are forced to drain more than they should.

Results pretty clearly back this as well. Nick the Ant has won the last three General Wars with Stingers (an insane feat as General Wars is very competitive with a lot of good to great players), and he NEVER drains. He’s a great player though, and his play patterns are strong enough to where he doesn’t need to rely on variance to win.
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  #94  
Old November 8th, 2019, 02:34 PM
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Re: Casters of Valhalla

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Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by NecroBlade View Post
Great to have a 'scape podcast! Enjoyed it so far. One major complaint, though: @OrcElfArmyOne severely mispronounced his own name at the beginning.
Lol, Iíll be sure to correct this atrocity next episode.
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  #95  
Old November 8th, 2019, 02:49 PM
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Re: Casters of Valhalla

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Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape View Post
Sure there's risk...but lots of Heroscape units have risk.
I don't think this is really true at all in the sense we are talking. Only the Wolves of Badru have a similar risk. The unit may die depending on a die roll based off your decision to use an ability or not. Anubian wolves can die as well, but you don't have the option to not roll. And in both cases, you still get to take your turn and attacks. Marcu also has a similar effect but once again you don't have the option to not take the risk.

I guess you can make an argument for Kelda to be included, but it's a bad argument. Maybe Pelloth too, but if you're playing Pelloth we have to have a different discussion.

Stinger drain has the biggest negative effect of any ability in the game because it's totally avoidable. Marcu is probably a close 2nd but that's why he's 20 points. Hawthorne is up there as well but since he can turn back it get's dicey.

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Last edited by Matthias Maccabeus; November 8th, 2019 at 03:01 PM. Reason: Ha! Get it..DICEY! Because he rolls dice...
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  #96  
Old November 8th, 2019, 03:38 PM
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Re: Casters of Valhalla

That's fair. Stingers with a strong screen of rats can help mitigate the impact of a failed roll though. So I'd still say they're a strong contender. I've played many a game against opponents who rolled for drain every time and never failed, royally cleaning my clock. Now, of course that's against odds and they should have failed a time or 2, but the impact of constantly rolling 4 dice (5 from height) while Drain is hot, keep you - generally - well in front of your opponent to the point where even a failed drain won't break the bank. That said, I'm a riskier player than most and live for "Red Deck" type play where the more dice I roll the more likely it will be for me to kill you and roll through your army.
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