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  #217  
Old June 18th, 2019, 09:29 PM
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Re: The Book of Cathar Spearmen

After proxying a bunch of c3v units as of late, these are definitely up there on the list of units I legitemately just do not enjoy playing against (along with deathreavers and Q9), for basically the exact same reason I don't like playing those other units: they are just too good.

I think 4 defense is sort of that magic number where they become difficult to kill with most range units. They are solid hitters in melee. You don't want to engage them, but they will kill you anyways whether you engage them or not.

I honestly find them to be quite similar to arkmer. They have solid defense, hit solid on the offense, and they are annoying to engage. The difference is that this is a common squad of 4 for only 25 points more.

I consider Arkmer as a solid unit, which sort of makes these guys God-Tier along rats and Q9. The only thing that can deal with them is range, but draft some phantom knights or krav with these guys and you have yourself a nearly unbeatable force.

Seriously, name 150 points of any other melee squad, and I promise that two squads of these guys will win 10/10 times. Even other anti-melee squad like WoA **barely**stand a fighting chance.
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  #218  
Old June 19th, 2019, 10:54 AM
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Re: The Book of Cathar Spearmen

Yup. We recently had a melee themed tournament here in the midwest and the Cathar Spearmen were virtually unbeatable. And even in a standard format, they're still extremely stout. Definitely an 'A' unit, and I think you could easily argue 'A+' (as you eloquently did). Right up there with rats and Q9 in that tier of units that are probably OP if you ask me.
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  #219  
Old June 19th, 2019, 11:25 AM
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Re: The Book of Cathar Spearmen

Personally I don't like Impale and how it provides the bonus for attacking non-adjacent figures. I feel like it was a missed opportunity to make it the opposite and give an additional attack die for adjacent targets. This would have made gameplay more interesting of giving up engagement strike for aggressive action. This would have provided a little more vulnerability to them as well.
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  #220  
Old June 19th, 2019, 02:18 PM
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Re: The Book of Cathar Spearmen

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Originally Posted by bmon View Post
Personally I don't like Impale and how it provides the bonus for attacking non-adjacent figures. I feel like it was a missed opportunity to make it the opposite and give an additional attack die for adjacent targets. This would have made gameplay more interesting of giving up engagement strike for aggressive action. This would have provided a little more vulnerability to them as well.
Great point. If impale only worked against adjacent units, it would at least put them at a little bit of risk of counter strike and some other such specials
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  #221  
Old June 19th, 2019, 02:33 PM
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Re: The Book of Cathar Spearmen

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Originally Posted by bmon View Post
Personally I don't like Impale and how it provides the bonus for attacking non-adjacent figures. I feel like it was a missed opportunity to make it the opposite and give an additional attack die for adjacent targets. This would have made gameplay more interesting of giving up engagement strike for aggressive action. This would have provided a little more vulnerability to them as well.
You're going to force me to make actually interesting choices? How dare you, I didn't come here to think.
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  #222  
Old June 19th, 2019, 03:27 PM
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Re: The Book of Cathar Spearmen

They are quite strong on the power curve. And I would expect them to be dominant at a melee-only event. But I like the challenge of Impale. My 2c.

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  #223  
Old June 19th, 2019, 11:18 PM
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Re: The Book of Cathar Spearmen

Funny, I've always felt like they were a bit overrated in the Power Rankings. They've never been overly dominate in all the games I've played with or against them. In my experience Braced Spear just never works quite often enough to elevate them to an 'A' rating. When I play with them everyone seems to play like they assume Braced Spear isn't actually going to work often enough to make a difference.

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  #224  
Old June 19th, 2019, 11:53 PM
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Re: The Book of Cathar Spearmen

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmon View Post
Personally I don't like Impale and how it provides the bonus for attacking non-adjacent figures. I feel like it was a missed opportunity to make it the opposite and give an additional attack die for adjacent targets. This would have made gameplay more interesting of giving up engagement strike for aggressive action. This would have provided a little more vulnerability to them as well.
I think the way it's implemented is very thematic... it just feels right to me. A pike as a weapon would be very awkward in close combat, so it makes sense to have the ranged attack boost. You do make a solid point about a more interesting decision when attacking though.

I like how much these guys drip with theme. I will say, I think they could have been priced a bit higher, but I wouldn't change anything other than that.

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  #225  
Old June 20th, 2019, 12:03 AM
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Re: The Book of Cathar Spearmen

I like it just the way it is. You move up and att. your opponent's melee figure from 2 spaces away, then when they try to engage you get a chance for an auto-wound. Makes sense to me.
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  #226  
Old June 20th, 2019, 12:49 AM
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Re: The Book of Cathar Spearmen

I agree that Impale is more thematic if it only works on non-adjacent figures, and I think that it also makes these guys play more uniquely than other melee squads. Even if it was flipped to be a melee attack boost, it wouldn't change my strategy enough to feel like the thematic sacrifice is worthwhile.

Honestly, I think that the price is the only thing that I would adjust here. Even as it currently is, I don't think they're nearly on the level of Raelin/Q9/Deathreavers, though.
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  #227  
Old June 20th, 2019, 01:50 AM
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Re: The Book of Cathar Spearmen

I guess my thing with the Cathar is that, while they fit the theme well, they fundamentally aren't melee units. They're two-range units.

Let's pretend for a moment that they straight-up just didn't have the Impale ability. They still have their stats, Braced Spears, and Reach. This set of powers means that they generally* want to attack from one space away, as it gives them the possibility of Braced Spears.
*barring more specific positioning decisions

Now that we've established that, let's reintroduce Impale. It rewards them for doing what they already want to do: attack from one space away.

Now let's imagine that Impale works for adjacent instead of non-adjacent figures. You then have to make a real choice: engage or stay one space away. With a base attack value of only two, you'd be forced to implement both of these choices throughout the game, making for highly tactical decisions. Do I give up Braced Spears to roll an extra die? Or am I better off not rolling the extra die and keeping Braced Spears active while staying a space away? It would mean they would have to make real choices, and it would also mean that they are not just a two-range unit: instead, they would have reasons to either engage or not engage.

May the theme suffer because of this? Sure, but gameplay should always trump fluff. Ideally, they can both be implemented; however, if one has to be sacrificed, I would argue it should be fluff. I think it's bad design to reward a unit for doing what it already wants to do, rather than forcing the player to make interesting and engaging choices with it. That's my two cents on the Cathar.
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  #228  
Old June 20th, 2019, 07:37 AM
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Re: The Book of Cathar Spearmen

I agree with all the comments about theme, but @OrcElfArmyOne nails my thoughts exactly.

The Cathar are an interesting squad. I just wish Impale worked differently. It's like giving a samurai squad Melee Defense.
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