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C3G Library This area collects all the released designs. Feel free to post any figure specific questions in their individual books.


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  #205  
Old December 30th, 2014, 02:07 PM
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Re: The Book of Knockback Optional Rules

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Originally Posted by Griffin View Post
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After all the rules and powers created up to this point, changing something like Knockback for the mere sake of theme, may cause other potential issues that are not currently foreseeable.
I just wanted to emphasis that. While I'm not involved enough to think this all through (considering every rule and special ability), I would hope that anyone picketing for a change will do their due diligence.
At this point, I think it only comes down to an "official" or generally accepted ruling in the FAQ. I'm not looking for change, just somewhere to point to when one of my friends is playing and want clarification on the rules.

To be honest, I'm not exactly sure which interpretation is in line with the expected way to play with this rule set.


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  #206  
Old December 30th, 2014, 07:02 PM
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Re: The Book of Knockback Optional Rules

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Flying figures have always been able to take falling damage unless otherwise stated on their card. Not sure why this is an issue. Whether the figure falls due to knockback or some kind of pushing type power/attack from the opponent's figure, it still works the same.
Do you have a source on that? As far as I could find, flying figures do not take falling damage while they are able to use Flying.
So then you wouldn't check for falling damage for flying figures that are affected by these special powers?

Quote:
MAGNETIC TURBO INSULATORS II
After moving and before attacking, you may choose a small or medium figure within 4 clear sight spaces of Iron Man. Roll the 20-sided die. If you roll 9 or higher, you may place the chosen figure on any unoccupied space within 4 spaces of its original placement. The chosen figure will not take any leaving engagement attacks but will take any falling damage that may apply. After using Magnetic Turbo Insulators, Iron Man may use it one additional time.
Quote:
REPULSOR RAY SPECIAL ATTACK
Range 6. Attack 4.
If Iron Man inflicts one or more wounds on a small or medium figure with this special attack, you may choose up to 3 empty spaces in a straight line from the defending figure and place that figure on any of the chosen spaces. A figure moved by this special attack never takes any leaving engagement attacks and cannot be placed closer to Iron Man than its original placement. A figure moved by this special attack can receive any falling damage that may apply.
Quote:
TORNADO FORCE WINDS
Instead of moving and attacking with Whirlwind, you may place all figures that are adjacent to Whirlwind and not huge up to 3 spaces from their original placements. Moved figures never take any leaving engagement attacks but will take any falling damage that may apply. Roll an unblockable attack die, one at a time, against each placed figure.
Quote:
CROWBAR DEMOLITION
If Wrecker is not engaged, instead of attacking with Wrecker, you may choose a figure within 2 spaces of Wrecker. Roll the 20-sided die. If you roll 9 or higher, you must place the chosen figure and each figure adjacent to the chosen figure on any empty spaces up to 2 spaces from their original placements, if possible. Figures moved by Crowbar Demolition will not take any leaving engagement attacks, but will take any falling damage that may apply. After a figure is placed by Crowbar Demolition, immediately roll one attack die. If you roll a skull, the placed figure receives 1 wound. Huge figures are not affected by this special power.

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  #207  
Old December 30th, 2014, 08:21 PM
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Re: The Book of Knockback Optional Rules

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Quote:
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Flying figures have always been able to take falling damage unless otherwise stated on their card. Not sure why this is an issue. Whether the figure falls due to knockback or some kind of pushing type power/attack from the opponent's figure, it still works the same.
Do you have a source on that? As far as I could find, flying figures do not take falling damage while they are able to use Flying.
Well the rulebook says this (this is from the D&D book, as it is the most recent one):

Quote:
Falling: When a figure moves down to a much lower level, it might get wounded. Falling does not stop a figure's movement, but it could wound or destroy it. Note: Falling rules do not apply if a figure falls onto a water space.

A figure can fall onto a water space from any level. However, all falling rules apply if a figure falls onto a shadow space.

A fall is defined as follows: If a figure moves down onto a level that is equal to or higher than the figure's height, you must roll one combat die immediately to see if it was
wounded.

Major fall: If the drop is 10 levels more than the figure's height, you must roll 2 additional dice (for a total of 3 dice).

For each skull you roll, add one wound marker to the figure's Army Card. (See Life, on page 13.)

Extreme fall: If the move is 20 levels more than the figure's height, you must roll the 20-sided die. If you roll 19 or 20, the figure survives without taking any falling damage. If you roll 1-18, the figure is destroyed.
No mention of flying figures at all. And it says when "a figure moves". Flying is still moving. Per the Flying power: "When counting spaces for X's movement..."

Is there some other source that's leading people to think that, as a general rule, flying figures are exempt from falling?
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  #208  
Old December 30th, 2014, 08:35 PM
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Re: The Book of Knockback Optional Rules

Obviously, a flying figure using its flying special power is able to move from any height to any lower level and not take falling damage.

But I don't understand why people think they wouldn't be susceptible to falling damage due to a special power or special rule (KB) on an opponent's turn.

The Marvel set has rules specifying falling in relation to figures with Superstrength. So if flying figures weren't intended to be able to take falling damage, that should have also been addressed in the rules.

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  #209  
Old December 30th, 2014, 10:30 PM
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Re: The Book of Knockback Optional Rules

I scoured rule books regarding the falling damage and flying before opening this can of worms. I found nothing other than the Flying Special power specifically stating to Ignore elevations. I think this is the source of the belief that Flying units never taking falling damage.

However with Jotun, Shurrak's and now Augamo's special powers specifically stating that flying figures are not affected, it is suggestive if the flying is not specifically addressed, you do what the rules say, not what they don't say (I.E. roll for falling damage).

I think the confusion is in Classic Scape it was rare (Impossible?) that you ever moved a figure without controlling that figure. However the Flying power is optional (if you take temporary control of a flying figure you can "walk" them off a cliff) so it makes sense that Iron man for example could use his repulsors on Hawkgirl and have her take falling damage.


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  #210  
Old December 31st, 2014, 12:09 AM
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Re: The Book of Knockback Optional Rules

The rulebooks don't specifically state one way or the other whether Flying figures take falling damage or not. Searching through the site, every time the question has been posed, the consensus is that figure with Flying would not take falling damage. However, it never actually arose with Classic Heroscape, so there is no official ruling that I can find.

Flying states that figures ignore elevations, and thus falling damage. Whether or not this applies when being moved by another power is not clear. Since this was never ruled on for Classic, it will probably need to be ruled on as a part of C3G.

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  #211  
Old December 31st, 2014, 12:22 AM
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Re: The Book of Knockback Optional Rules

Well, I think the assumption is that special powers only have effect when they're being used, which is usually only during that figure's turn. Exceptions being special powers that explicitly state they trigger during another figure's turn. But Flying says nothing about being active during another figure's turn. In fact, it explicitly says it applies for "X's movement", which implies that it is during the "move phase" of that figure's turn. Personally, I believe that making the assumption that Flying is active during another figure's turn would set a precedent for other strange effects - for example, you could then argue that Elektra's Phantom Walk is active during another figure's turn, and that she could therefore be moved through other figures when being knocked back.

In terms of Classic Heroscape, I think the fact that certain powers explicitly point out the fact the flying figures will not take damage implies that there is no such general rule in effect, which is why those powers felt the need to call out the exceptions.

At least, this is how I've always interpreted it.
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  #212  
Old December 31st, 2014, 12:49 AM
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Re: The Book of Knockback Optional Rules

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Originally Posted by TrollBrute View Post
The rulebooks don't specifically state one way or the other whether Flying figures take falling damage or not. Searching through the site, every time the question has been posed, the consensus is that figure with Flying would not take falling damage. However, it never actually arose with Classic Heroscape, so there is no official ruling that I can find.

Flying states that figures ignore elevations, and thus falling damage. Whether or not this applies when being moved by another power is not clear. Since this was never ruled on for Classic, it will probably need to be ruled on as a part of C3G.
Leaping/swinging powers also say to ignore elevations. So they don't take falling damage either?

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  #213  
Old December 31st, 2014, 09:40 AM
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Re: The Book of Knockback Optional Rules

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Leaping/swinging powers also say to ignore elevations. So they don't take falling damage either?
No. Those powers clearly state "instead of moving normally" or "instead of his normal move". Flying says "When counting spaces for XXX's movement". The question is over whether being moved is the same as moving. Martian Manhunter has a power that moves other figures and it has been ruled that those figures may use Flying when being moved by this power. Presumably, if he directed them off a tall height, they would not take falling damage.
Quote:
Q - How about powers that change how you move, like Flying, Ice Resistance, or Super Leap?
A - Only powers that don't say "instead of normal movement". So Flying can be used, and you can count 1 space for heavy snow and slippery ice with Ice Resistance. but Super Leap, and other movement powers that happen instead of normal movement, cannot be used. Powers that trigger as a result of movement, such as Razor Wing Slash, can be used.
With powers that say "place", it becomes much grayer, but "place" and "move" can occasionally mean the same thing in Heroscape.

I'm not coming down on one side or the other, I'm just trying to look at this from all angles before I make a snap judgement that may contradict another ruling.

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  #214  
Old December 31st, 2014, 10:12 AM
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Re: The Book of Knockback Optional Rules

Okay, I can see where you're coming from. But what about Phantom Walk? It also doesn't say "instead of his normal move", it just says "can move through all figures". So would you think that when a figure with Phantom Walk is knocked back, they can still move through other figures?
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  #215  
Old December 31st, 2014, 10:40 AM
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Re: The Book of Knockback Optional Rules

Also, flying is optional. A flying figure engaged with an opponent's figure will take a leaving engagement attack if it begins to fly, even if it fly's to the other side of the same figure and ends up engaged still. But if it walks around the figure while staying engaged, then it won't take a leaving engagement attack.


So I guess what I'm getting at is why are you allowed to use an optional power when you are being moved by an opponent's action?

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  #216  
Old December 31st, 2014, 11:50 AM
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Re: The Book of Knockback Optional Rules

I think the difference with Martian Manhunter is that you control those figures, so you want them to fly. Likewise you could choose not to use flying, or other special movement powers.

In the case of Knockback (which explicitely says ignore special powers) and Iron Man's repulsor ray special attack, you are moving (read: controlling the movement of) an opponents figure and don't want them to fly so they fall and take wounds.

I guess you could Attack one of your own figures with Iron Man, and still get them to fly, since you are in control of that figure.


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