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C3G Legacy Archive of all the original discussions and workshops from the first stage of C3G.

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  #37  
Old February 11th, 2010, 01:40 PM
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Re: What Makes a C3G Hero (or Sidekick)?

I think the current - one playtest per month for sidekicks and two playtests per month for heroes might be a tad ambitious, though, and might risk alienating too many folks.
I'm all about playtesting being something encouraged and required to some extent, but I am open to hearing what sorts of contributions in other arenas could cover these requirements - but they also have to be impressive enough of contributions to truly qualify ... which is going to take a little something, IMO.
I think even one playtest a month per hero and one every two months per sidekicks could be incredible, especially if some go above and beyond that by choice.

C3G can be played with official Heroscape, but it's not recommended.


DISCLAIMER: C3G claims no ownership of the characters or artwork used for C3G customs. All rights for the characters belong to their respective publishers/creators. C3G cards are not intended for sale, and C3G does not authorize any party to profit from C3G cards.

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  #38  
Old February 11th, 2010, 01:47 PM
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Re: What Makes a C3G Hero (or Sidekick)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by IAmBatman View Post
I think the current - one playtest per month for sidekicks and two playtests per month for heroes might be a tad ambitious, though, and might risk alienating too many folks.
I'm all about playtesting being something encouraged and required to some extent, but I am open to hearing what sorts of contributions in other arenas could cover these requirements - but they also have to be impressive enough of contributions to truly qualify ... which is going to take a little something, IMO.
I think even one playtest a month per hero and one every two months per sidekicks could be incredible, especially if some go above and beyond that by choice.
OK, how about this? Each Hero must complete at least one playtest sheet each month, and Each Sidekick must complete at least one checklist sheet each month.
In case you guys don't know what a checklist sheet is, it is the upper section of the feedback form and it does not require any game play, just cross referencing of powers and cards. You can download a Feedback Form HERE in the download section of this site.
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  #39  
Old February 11th, 2010, 03:05 PM
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Re: What Makes a C3G Hero (or Sidekick)?

I awoke in the hotel room to what sounded like the noise of an all girl school at the end of long day of classes. It wasn't the good kind of college girls, it was the annoying high pitched screams of little teenagers.

Despite my age I still pounced out of bad and checked my senses. It was coming from the room across the hall. When I scouted out the young hotel clerk's computer at check in, that was the room where the yahoos were holding their little pow-wow.

I walked across the hall and knocked ever so slightly and then ducked to the side to avoid the peep hole. I didn't want them to know it was me.

Griffin started to open the door without care. As soon as I saw light from the room, I pushed my win and pushed hard. Griffin fell back and landed in the Owl's lap. I'm sure there's a photographer in San Francisco that wishes he got that shot, they looked uncomfortably happy for a moment.

I quickly shot the door and stared down Hahma. He stood up thinking that he should to address me so I pointed to his chair. As he started to sit back down, I grabbed it with my right hand and pulled it out from under him. As he hit the floor with a cry of pain, I wedged the seat back under the hotel door and began my lesson.

"OK ladies, I've got a few words for you and then I expect this meeting to get civil so that I can get some sleep."

Bats was standing up in the center of their little circle and suddenly looked uncomfortable.

"Now hear this. All of you whiners looking to get defensive about this little thread need to shut your mouths and stop thinking about your own little contributions. If you opened your eyes, you would see what this was all about. If you can't see it, I'll list them for you:

1. Griffin has recognized that there is a lot of new blood in these threads and the new boys really seem eager to help. It seems to me that his micro-manager type mind wants to get a set of rules to ensure a fair way that these new guys can be integrated into the fold. He wasn't calling out anybody, he was looking to expand the party.

2. Bats has good intentions as well. He knows that the last mission got slowed down by playtesting and he sees new guys willing to jump in there and help. His logic mind immediately goes to thinking that playtesting is the best way to get an opinion on reality so those people who take that up should be involved in decisions.

3. Grey Owl is rightfully thinking that he has put more into the custom world than anyone else could dream. He never takes a break and continues to provide a hell of a work product on everything he does. and those things he does, probably couldn't be done by anyone else. He's also the ultimate team player and never, let me repeat never, gets over confident about his own ideas. The man knows he puts in the work and doesn't want to be told that there is a checklist of mandatory things he needs to do to be appreciated.

4. Whitestuff, Balantai, Hahma, Spidey, A3n these guys have been amazing and have stepped up every time they are asked to. All in different aspects, but all so important.

So here's the deal Princess Bats and Dutchess Griff, don't alienate your true heroes by pushing mandatory rules on workload. I'm not going to take anything away from the sidekicks, fans allies, whatever. They've all been great, but these 7 current heroes have proven themselves through the long haul and produced the best custom product there is. And because it is the best product, the C3G has become "Flavor of the Month". Everyone now wants to be a part of it.

I'm not saying that the rookies won't also be just as committed, but what I am saying as that we already know about the current 7 heroes.

And here's the deal about playtesting. Some C3G members have time consuming jobs, families with kids, and other outside stressers. I'm sure it's not easy to set up any playtesting map when you have grammar school kids climbing on the minute work is done. I realize that playtesting is crucial and I realize that there is a rsik of burnout on those who take up the brunt. But that playtesting workload is only stressful because you've put a mental time frame on when you want to get these things done. Not everyone has the lifestyle to keep up the pace and therefore you can either leave your best people behind, or you can work with their time frame. The only other option is to take up more work yourself, but if you chose that,then don't throw a little tantrum over it.

So, before I have to start breaking heads and recruiting replacement muscle to continue this project, I will give you the answer to the debate right now.

1. Heroes are on the top and the current 7 keep their status until 6 of them decide that 1 person is completely absent from the C3G threads for a length of time.

2. Sidekicks can be expanded to include anyone who proves themselves through sensible playtesting and/or checklists. Forget the minimum per month, if a hero recognizes great effort, they nominate a sidekick and the heroes vote. With no limit on the sidekicks, you'll get more work horses that way.

3. From the sidekicks, the heroes can keep a lists of three who are near-heroes alternate voters only to be used on tiebreakers (of course a hero can always assign any sidekick as a temp proxy). Someone else can come up with the name. These are the folks with proven track records who just don't have the time to be heroes. It can also include significant workhorses who make contributions such as playtesting that proves they know what they are talking about.

As the new folks fall into these categories, I'm sure we'll see some more participation from them in playtesting to ease the workload on Hahma, Griff and Bats. Those folks that show the commitment can rise to sidekick fairly easily and alternate voter by hero nomination.

I think you need to relax with the minimum hours of work because Balantai said it best,this is supposed to be fun and obligations are never fun."

I couldn't tell if they even heard a word I was saying. I think the switch blade I was fiddling with had them all scared. They were getting better though, no puddles of notice under their chairs. But as I left, I grabbed Whitey by his belt and quickly scooped inside his waistband with the end of the blade. I jerked it up fast and revealed the pick lace thong strap just before it snapped.

"I thought so," I said, "Every good artist has to have a feminine side." I shook my head and started to leave the room glancing over where I had left Griff and Grey Owl. They hadn't moved and Griff was still on Owl's lap. I shook my head again and didn't even comment about the fact that they were still staring at Whitey's exposed panties.

It was time to go.

Last edited by Matt Helm; February 11th, 2010 at 04:53 PM.
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  #40  
Old February 11th, 2010, 03:19 PM
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Re: What Makes a C3G Hero (or Sidekick)?

Just to make sure I'm perfectly clear - I'm not saying anyone hasn't earned their current spot or doesn't deserve to be where they are or that their contributions aren't extremely appreciated.
I'm just saying that in order for this project to work, things like playtesting have to be done, and that it should be a shared burden.
Is once per month too much? Maybe, I don't know. Maybe hard numbers like that need to be debated more, maybe they can be agreed on, maybe they can't. But does it disparage me to see heroes playtesting hardly at all or never? You betcha.
But maybe we have to work with what we've got to work with and I definitely don't want to alienate anyone from this.
So maybe you're right and maybe I have to lower my expectations for this group and what we're going to realistically produce. Maybe I have to forget the idea of getting out 20-30 units a year and accept the idea of getting out 10 or so really good ones per year - or even less as guys like Hahma and Griff and I decide to scale back on our personal playtesting because we realize that our level of passion and ability to commit time isn't the norm in this group.
So maybe we should just shoot for 5 good customs or so a year and I should relax a bit and not take this project so seriously. I know I do have a lot of other things I should probably be doing right now.

C3G can be played with official Heroscape, but it's not recommended.


DISCLAIMER: C3G claims no ownership of the characters or artwork used for C3G customs. All rights for the characters belong to their respective publishers/creators. C3G cards are not intended for sale, and C3G does not authorize any party to profit from C3G cards.

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  #41  
Old February 11th, 2010, 03:38 PM
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Re: What Makes a C3G Hero (or Sidekick)?

Ok here is an idea for bringing people into the fold....

Why not let them playtest units you guys have already "finished"...don't give them the completed version though...give them the version you guys started playtesting with before you made tweaks. Obviously you have already figured out what was "wrong" with them and see if they have the know how to find those same "flaws".
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  #42  
Old February 11th, 2010, 03:46 PM
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Re: What Makes a C3G Hero (or Sidekick)?

It seems like it's a lot more efficient to let them do things that contribute to the forward momentum of the project ... I don't think we really have time to run a custom academy program ...

C3G can be played with official Heroscape, but it's not recommended.


DISCLAIMER: C3G claims no ownership of the characters or artwork used for C3G customs. All rights for the characters belong to their respective publishers/creators. C3G cards are not intended for sale, and C3G does not authorize any party to profit from C3G cards.

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  #43  
Old February 11th, 2010, 04:33 PM
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Re: What Makes a C3G Hero (or Sidekick)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hahma View Post

Well didn't the main playtesters do proofreading, research, hash out rules amongst other things? Haven't Bats and Griffin done playtesting in addition to those things listed above, not to mention creating the scenario's and maps and an incredible amount more?

I feel like I contributed beyond just the playtesting by doing research, contributed online, building and tearing down scenario maps to test and take pictures of. Build them again to check how they worked in in the rulesbook, proofread and edited first few pages of rulebook amonst other things. Did a nice tutorial for re-basing figures. I think that while there is more to do than just playtesting, the main playtesters have done more than just playtesting. With the exception of artwork, we've done everything you listed and more.
Of course you did a lot, Hahma. Nobody's arguing that, and I think you fully deserve your Hero status (and more). And I'm not knocking the value of playtesting or the amount of time and effort it involves. I'm just saying it shouldn't be treated as the most important thing, something that matters more than anything else. No other single task should hold that position, either.

I think the type of work we do here involves a lot of different types of tasks, and it's all necessary and valuable. In my opinion, Heroes should be responsible for three things: 1) voting, 2) designing cards, and 3) at least one of those important tasks. Sidekicks should be responsible only for one thing: designing cards. That doesn't mean they can't help with those other tasks, just that they're not expected to. Heroes are not just playtesters, they are more than that.

And I'm saying this not because of what I've specifically worked on and not worked on. I really do appreciate everyone saying I can be exempt from the playtesting requirement and still remain a Hero. But what that really says to me is that you all can see value in somebody being a Hero even if they don't playtest much. So why shouldn't that be extended to anyone else that's a Hero, as long as they pull their weight somehow? It isn't fair to the next guy if only I have a special exemption. That exemption, or the thought behind it, should be built into the rules so that I don't need an exemption. Obviously, I'm covered either way. But I don't think the current line of thinking that requires a minimum of playtesting is fair to others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Griffin View Post
I really don't see why anyone of us would ever argue against Playtesting as a requirement (unless you can't or are lazy, sorry, but I am gonna be honest).
I'm sorry, but it's not always due to laziness. Some people don't have enough terrain (though I have plenty). Others can work on hashing out rules, making cards, or whatever at work or on a lunch break, but we can't take a boardgame to work and play it. Some people travel for their jobs, and can work on things on their laptop, but don't have the game available to play. My wife, for example, hates when I leave Heroscape maps out, which means that I have to build a map, playtest, and tear it down all in one sitting. And unfortunately, I rarely have that long of a stretch of time to dedicate all at once. If I want to test 3-4 games, I'd have to build and tear down the map every time.

Playtesting should be one of the things in the list of requirements, but not the only one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Helm View Post
3. Grey Owl is rightfully thinking that he has put more into the custom world than anyone else could dream. He never takes a break and continues to provide a hell of a work product on everything he does. and those things he does, probably couldn't be done by anyone else. He's also the ultimate team player and never, let me repeat never, gets over confident about his own ideas. The man knows he puts in the work and doesn't want to be told that there is a checklist of mandatory things he needs to do to be appreciated.
I really appreciate that. However, my opposition to this idea isn't for myself. Like I said, it sounds like I'm covered either way. The reason I won't support it is because it isn't fair to everyone else that I get an exemption like that, when they couldn't even if they did the exact same things I do (according to the proposed definition). If IAmBatman never did playtesting, I think he'd still more than deserve to be a Hero. Same for Griffin, and Hahma, and anyone else that did playtesting.
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  #44  
Old February 11th, 2010, 04:38 PM
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Re: What Makes a C3G Hero (or Sidekick)?

The problem is, if none of us did playtesting, then this project would go nowhere.
And the same for other duties that go beyond design and voting.
So maybe to salvage this thread we should establish what those different areas are and what is a necessary level of contribution in such an area on a monthly basis to maintain voting rights?
Or maybe we should just scrap it all and go free and easy like Mr. Helm seems to prefer? I don't want to be captain no fun here and if having a higher standard drains the fun out of the process for you (this is addressed to the general you, not anyone in particular), I'd rather just drop the whole thing.

C3G can be played with official Heroscape, but it's not recommended.


DISCLAIMER: C3G claims no ownership of the characters or artwork used for C3G customs. All rights for the characters belong to their respective publishers/creators. C3G cards are not intended for sale, and C3G does not authorize any party to profit from C3G cards.

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  #45  
Old February 11th, 2010, 04:40 PM
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Re: What Makes a C3G Hero (or Sidekick)?

I agree, playtesting is necessary, it just isn't necessary for every Hero to do it. That's why I was saying that every Hero should be responsible for doing one type of task that we, as the group, consider necessary. Now we can either make a list of those now, or just wing it because I think 6 of us will know if one is slacking off and not contributing. I'm okay with either approach.
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  #46  
Old February 11th, 2010, 04:42 PM
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Re: What Makes a C3G Hero (or Sidekick)?

I find it odd that all of this talk about mandatory drugtestingplaytesting has come at a time when we have so many.
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  #47  
Old February 11th, 2010, 04:43 PM
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Re: What Makes a C3G Hero (or Sidekick)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyOwl View Post
I think 6 of us will know if one is slacking off and not contributing.
We'll know it, but will we have any established grounds to call them out on it? Or the guts to?
I think I'd be open to at least hearing what that list of "necessary" contributions was and what criteria might be involved with each ... even if it's never something we agree to formally require, it might be nice to establish a standard that we all agreed on as a sign that you're truly taking ownership in the group.

C3G can be played with official Heroscape, but it's not recommended.


DISCLAIMER: C3G claims no ownership of the characters or artwork used for C3G customs. All rights for the characters belong to their respective publishers/creators. C3G cards are not intended for sale, and C3G does not authorize any party to profit from C3G cards.

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  #48  
Old February 11th, 2010, 04:44 PM
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Re: What Makes a C3G Hero (or Sidekick)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Balantai View Post
I find it odd that all of this talk about mandatory drugtestingplaytesting has come at a time when we have so many.
I guess it was the realization that some community members who have zero voting rights have been far outshining some full voting members in that regard as of late ... and also the whole idea of if we bring new people into the fold (as we'll inevitably do) what types of people do we want to bring in and what types of contributions should we expect from them or ask of them (or should we just stay free and easy?)?

C3G can be played with official Heroscape, but it's not recommended.


DISCLAIMER: C3G claims no ownership of the characters or artwork used for C3G customs. All rights for the characters belong to their respective publishers/creators. C3G cards are not intended for sale, and C3G does not authorize any party to profit from C3G cards.

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