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  #349  
Old January 14th, 2014, 08:43 PM
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Re: Any other childfree people here?

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Originally Posted by Lazy Orang View Post
Because it's too dangerous. If someone has unlimited power, they can do anything they want to people, unpunished. The idea of unlimited power and authority sticks in my throat a bit, but when it's unconditional as well, that's when the real problems start - unconditional total authority means that power can be abused as much as the guy with it wants, and no one can take it away.
So we are saying that the Christian God is dangerous. Someone with unlimited power that can do anything He wants to people, unpunished. I agree with that wholeheartedly. The Christian God is extremely dangerous. Even more so because we are limited in our perception of who He is and what He wants.

But is He a tyrant?

I grabbed Merriam-Webster:
Tyrant
: a ruler who has complete power over a country and who is cruel and unfair
: someone who uses power in a cruel and unfair way

Clearly He has power. The question is whether or not He is cruel and unfair. I've got cruel as "disposed to inflict pain or suffering" and unfair as "marked by injustice, partiality, or deception".

The gist of the Bible is this: God made everything perfect without pain or suffering and honestly warned Adam and Eve against the consequences of eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. After they ate, pain and suffering entered into the world as a consequence of their action. Desiring a future state where everyone who chose it would be able to once again live with Him without any pain or suffering, God began to unfold His plan to make that future possible.

I know how God's plan started and I know how God's plan ends - everyone who chooses it living with God free from pain and suffering. This ongoing middle part where we all get from a to b is sometimes pretty hard to understand. Knowing that we started at "a" and are ending at "b" though, reassures me that even without my understanding of the plan, I can trust that it is working perfectly according to the design of the God who desires to live in peace, reconciled with us all.

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  #350  
Old January 14th, 2014, 08:52 PM
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Re: Any other childfree people here?

I can see how God could be dangerous, and perhaps marked as a tyrant. Mind you, to be completely perfect means to be everything and nothing at once. The infinite paradox, that is perfection. Could God be a tyrant and an Honored King at the same time? To believe in perfection... For him to be perfect... He must be both.

This is the discussion that we've owed to so many before us... Regardless of whom is the higher power, we have owed this discussion for so long... Logic is a wonderous thing.

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Last edited by flameslayer93; January 14th, 2014 at 08:56 PM. Reason: Of course, I am referring to this entire discussion, not my drivel ^_^
  #351  
Old January 14th, 2014, 10:11 PM
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Re: Any other childfree people here?

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Originally Posted by flameslayer93 View Post
LazyO, your replying to my having given a neutral answer to a question. Any reason?

(This was the homosexuality bit, not my description of Jesus' death).
I was less replying to you and more to the incorrect opinion that you correctly stated some Christians have.

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If this is the case then why did he create homosexuals?
Would you agree it would be dictatorial to not provide us with free will? If then if homosexual tendencies are genetic it is one of the ways God is allowing us to have free will. If they didn't have at least the choice to act on their homosexuality, then God would definitely be a dictator. But he gave us free choice, so if he has to give us brains (and therefore DNA) that can choose to act contrary to his laws. If he said you can't be gay and then forced us to not be gay (by means of creating us so that our DNA completely denied the notion to be gay) then that would be tyranny. Now you say he is forcing us to not be gay by condemning us to hell. Well one God is merciful and if you repent he will definitely grant you heaven if you sinned. Second hell is not necessarily fire and brimstone, it is purely just separation from God, so if you want to be homosexual over being with God then you are granted what you want, separation from God, or hell. Also I'm not God so I'm not sure how high homosexuality ranks on God's list of sins, you very well could be homosexual and have acted in that manner but God in his infinite mercy would overlook (depending on how small it is to him) that minor transgression. Then again homosexuality may be taught as a mortal sin that you do have to repent so as to be with God.

Homosexuality is just God allowing us to freely choose.
No, if God wasn't cool with it, the kindest thing would just be to not create people with those urges. Instead, he creates people with those urges, then tells them that if they act on them they should be hated, killed, separated from his 'love', and possibly eternally tortured. Can you say despot? He's starting to sound a bit like the Party from 1984 - breaking people because he can.
So he wouldn't be dictatorial if he didn't give us free will? So it would be kinder for him to not give us the ability to choose?
Let's get this straight (no pun intended) once and for all - Homosexuality IS NOT A CHOICE. It is inbuilt. There is evidence for that. He isn't giving you 'the ability to choose' - those desires are there, you don't choose to have them there. Your only choice is whether to act on them and be hated or not to act on them and to be less happy.

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Lazy, I view homosexuality as a moral violation of God's law. So are rape and murder, so is theft, so is heterosexual lust, so is disobeying your parents. It's not the same sin as rape or murder, but it carries with it the same punishment, because at root it is a rejection of God's law. I don't believe it is caused by genetics, but if it is caused by genetics, I don't believe that God put it there, and I was explaining how even if it was genetically influenced as you asserted it would not be God's intention. I think it should be noted that I only answered the question after you repeatedly raised the issue over multiple posts. I suspect you may have guessed that since I believe the Bible is true, I might not agree with homosexuality. So I think the idea that "Now I know what you really stand for!" is a little bit disingenuous. It's not as though I went out of my way to raise the issue and was looking for an opportunity to bring it up. You were the one who kept pushing the issue. I simply responded to your questions after you prodded me multiple times.

If my fidelity to God's word makes me a religious bigot in your book, there's not really much I can do about it, but I'm not going to lie and say that I don't believe God's word, because in the end he's the one I'll have to answer to, not you. I think at this point, I've elucidated God's standards for sexual activity multiple times, and the fact that violating those standards does result in emotional and spiritual effects. You reject that premise. That's fine. I don't see much point in repeating the same thing I've stated multiple times to you and PGS earlier in the thread. I've tried to conduct myself in a respectful way throughout. I hope at the very least, that this thread caused you to think about these issues more fully, and I hope that someday you come to know the God who is just, who is good, and who loves you.
You, in hating gays, are one of the things I have least truck with - someone who is intolerant. I believe your views on the matter of homosexuality to be utterly despicable, and I'm sorry, I try to be respectful, but I can't lie. The fact is that, in the end, you do stand for intolerance. As to the bolded, I never will because a) he probably doesn't exist, b) the Bible God is not as you describe him, and c) if he did claim to love me, after everything he's said and done, I would be morally obliged to reject that.

I can honestly happily debate most things, and I can accept other points of view, but when it comes to intolerance... I just can't accept that.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazy Orang View Post
Because it's too dangerous. If someone has unlimited power, they can do anything they want to people, unpunished. The idea of unlimited power and authority sticks in my throat a bit, but when it's unconditional as well, that's when the real problems start - unconditional total authority means that power can be abused as much as the guy with it wants, and no one can take it away.
So we are saying that the Christian God is dangerous. Someone with unlimited power that can do anything He wants to people, unpunished. I agree with that wholeheartedly. The Christian God is extremely dangerous. Even more so because we are limited in our perception of who He is and what He wants.

But is He a tyrant?

I grabbed Merriam-Webster:
Tyrant
: a ruler who has complete power over a country and who is cruel and unfair
: someone who uses power in a cruel and unfair way

Clearly He has power. The question is whether or not He is cruel and unfair. I've got cruel as "disposed to inflict pain or suffering" and unfair as "marked by injustice, partiality, or deception".

The gist of the Bible is this: God made everything perfect without pain or suffering and honestly warned Adam and Eve against the consequences of eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. After they ate, pain and suffering entered into the world as a consequence of their action. Desiring a future state where everyone who chose it would be able to once again live with Him without any pain or suffering, God began to unfold His plan to make that future possible.

I know how God's plan started and I know how God's plan ends - everyone who chooses it living with God free from pain and suffering. This ongoing middle part where we all get from a to b is sometimes pretty hard to understand. Knowing that we started at "a" and are ending at "b" though, reassures me that even without my understanding of the plan, I can trust that it is working perfectly according to the design of the God who desires to live in peace, reconciled with us all.

~Aldin, trusting in God's perfect character
Assuming he exists, he has used his power to:

1: Persecute homosexuals;
2: Persecute those who don't believe in him;
3: Demand fealty;
4: Sideline women, giving them less rights than men;
5: Order that those who curse their parents even once should be put to death;
6: Order that those who have had sex prior to marriage be put to death;
7: Command that you should not sow your field with two varieties of seed or wear clothes of blended fabrics;
8: Decree that you should not round your hair;
9: Spread plagues and famines;
10: Forbid you from braiding your hair or wearing gold;
11: Condemn God knows how many people to eternal torment in Hell.

Some of those are just silly, and the rest are downright cruel, and that probably isn't all. He is a dictator, a tyrant, a despot, and I still hold with hat quote from Philip Pullman - I have seen nothing to sway me. I had thought this through before, but if anything, debating it has made me think it through more, and made more sure of my position here.


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  #352  
Old January 14th, 2014, 10:17 PM
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Re: Any other childfree people here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by flameslayer93 View Post
I can see how God could be dangerous, and perhaps marked as a tyrant. Mind you, to be completely perfect means to be everything and nothing at once. The infinite paradox, that is perfection. Could God be a tyrant and an Honored King at the same time? To believe in perfection... For him to be perfect... He must be both.

This is the discussion that we've owed to so many before us... Regardless of whom is the higher power, we have owed this discussion for so long... Logic is a wonderous thing.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flameslayer93
My position on homosexuality isnt needed to be discussed here ^.^
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  #353  
Old January 14th, 2014, 10:40 PM
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Crixus33 Crixus33 is offline
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Re: Any other childfree people here?

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Originally Posted by Lazy Orang View Post
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Originally Posted by Crixus33 View Post
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Originally Posted by Lazy Orang View Post

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Originally Posted by Crixus33 View Post
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Originally Posted by greygnarl View Post
If this is the case then why did he create homosexuals?
Would you agree it would be dictatorial to not provide us with free will? If then if homosexual tendencies are genetic it is one of the ways God is allowing us to have free will. If they didn't have at least the choice to act on their homosexuality, then God would definitely be a dictator. But he gave us free choice, so if he has to give us brains (and therefore DNA) that can choose to act contrary to his laws. If he said you can't be gay and then forced us to not be gay (by means of creating us so that our DNA completely denied the notion to be gay) then that would be tyranny. Now you say he is forcing us to not be gay by condemning us to hell. Well one God is merciful and if you repent he will definitely grant you heaven if you sinned. Second hell is not necessarily fire and brimstone, it is purely just separation from God, so if you want to be homosexual over being with God then you are granted what you want, separation from God, or hell. Also I'm not God so I'm not sure how high homosexuality ranks on God's list of sins, you very well could be homosexual and have acted in that manner but God in his infinite mercy would overlook (depending on how small it is to him) that minor transgression. Then again homosexuality may be taught as a mortal sin that you do have to repent so as to be with God.

Homosexuality is just God allowing us to freely choose.
No, if God wasn't cool with it, the kindest thing would just be to not create people with those urges. Instead, he creates people with those urges, then tells them that if they act on them they should be hated, killed, separated from his 'love', and possibly eternally tortured. Can you say despot? He's starting to sound a bit like the Party from 1984 - breaking people because he can.
So he wouldn't be dictatorial if he didn't give us free will? So it would be kinder for him to not give us the ability to choose?
Let's get this straight (no pun intended) once and for all - Homosexuality IS NOT A CHOICE. It is inbuilt. There is evidence for that. He isn't giving you 'the ability to choose' - those desires are there, you don't choose to have them there. Your only choice is whether to act on them and be hated or not to act on them and to be less happy.
I never meant homosexuality was a choice, I meant, like you said, you can choose to act on your desires. And therefore my question still stands, why should he not give people that genetic makeup as that would remove the desires they have and remove from them the free will to act on those desires? Should he not give them the DNA that would give them sexual attraction to other men, if he didn't give people that genetic makeup they would't have even the ability to decide to act on their desires?
Also I believe there must be some cases (definitely a minority of cases) where homosexuality was a life choice, not based on genetics, maybe I'm wrong there, but do you have definitive proof some cases people don't just decide that is what they want?
Also you stated it may be genetically based in you original posts on the matter. I have no knowledge on the subject so: is it based on genetics or is it only a theory/hypothesis at this point in science?

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Last edited by Crixus33; January 14th, 2014 at 10:40 PM. Reason: I"m off to bed, sorry I won't be replying tonight, I apologize
  #354  
Old January 14th, 2014, 10:51 PM
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Re: Any other childfree people here?

But why would a just God choose to cut certain people out of "taking a small part in the creation of life?" and give them a desire that can never be fulfilled without sinning?

As for making a choice, that's simply not true. Some people might think they are homosexual and realize they aren't, or they could think they're heterosexual and realize they're homosexual. Plus, it's not like it's either or. See the Kinsey Scale.

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  #355  
Old January 14th, 2014, 11:29 PM
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Re: Any other childfree people here?

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Originally Posted by greygnarl View Post
But why would a just God choose to cut certain people out of "taking a small part in the creation of life?" and give them a desire that can never be fulfilled without sinning?
Not going to wade any deeper into this discussion here, but as far as this particular argument goes, it doesn't actually prove much. We all have desires we can never fulfill without sinning.

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  #356  
Old January 15th, 2014, 12:54 AM
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Re: Any other childfree people here?

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Originally Posted by greygnarl View Post
But why would a just God choose to cut certain people out of "taking a small part in the creation of life?" and give them a desire that can never be fulfilled without sinning?
Not going to wade any deeper into this discussion here, but as far as this particular argument goes, it doesn't actually prove much. We all have desires we can never fulfill without sinning.
My desire is that this thread will stay civil and on topic . . . but not even sinning will accomplish that.

But in regard to the Original Post -- is there any opinion on if it is rude for someone to suggest that someone else should have kids? Isn't that the topic?
  #357  
Old January 15th, 2014, 05:50 AM
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Re: Any other childfree people here?

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Quote:
Originally Posted by greygnarl View Post
But why would a just God choose to cut certain people out of "taking a small part in the creation of life?" and give them a desire that can never be fulfilled without sinning?
Not going to wade any deeper into this discussion here, but as far as this particular argument goes, it doesn't actually prove much. We all have desires we can never fulfill without sinning.
How many of these desires also prevent happiness for all eternity however? You do not need to answer this of course, caps, as there are others who will gladly answer it.

I see nothing wrong with being a homosexual. If it is best left as sin, then come journey to hell of your own volition. Much like God has the right to condemn you to Hell, you have the right to not be bothered by it. Punishment means nothing if you scoff and dust it off your shoulder.

Of course, I believe that humanity will be its own demise. That the emd of the world will occur far after humans are extinct. ^_~

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  #358  
Old January 15th, 2014, 07:26 AM
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Re: Any other childfree people here?

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Originally Posted by greygnarl View Post
If this is the case then why did he create homosexuals?
Would you agree it would be dictatorial to not provide us with free will? If then if homosexual tendencies are genetic it is one of the ways God is allowing us to have free will. If they didn't have at least the choice to act on their homosexuality, then God would definitely be a dictator. But he gave us free choice, so if he has to give us brains (and therefore DNA) that can choose to act contrary to his laws. If he said you can't be gay and then forced us to not be gay (by means of creating us so that our DNA completely denied the notion to be gay) then that would be tyranny. Now you say he is forcing us to not be gay by condemning us to hell. Well one God is merciful and if you repent he will definitely grant you heaven if you sinned. Second hell is not necessarily fire and brimstone, it is purely just separation from God, so if you want to be homosexual over being with God then you are granted what you want, separation from God, or hell. Also I'm not God so I'm not sure how high homosexuality ranks on God's list of sins, you very well could be homosexual and have acted in that manner but God in his infinite mercy would overlook (depending on how small it is to him) that minor transgression. Then again homosexuality may be taught as a mortal sin that you do have to repent so as to be with God.

Homosexuality is just God allowing us to freely choose.
No, if God wasn't cool with it, the kindest thing would just be to not create people with those urges. Instead, he creates people with those urges, then tells them that if they act on them they should be hated, killed, separated from his 'love', and possibly eternally tortured. Can you say despot? He's starting to sound a bit like the Party from 1984 - breaking people because he can.
So he wouldn't be dictatorial if he didn't give us free will? So it would be kinder for him to not give us the ability to choose?
Let's get this straight (no pun intended) once and for all - Homosexuality IS NOT A CHOICE. It is inbuilt. There is evidence for that. He isn't giving you 'the ability to choose' - those desires are there, you don't choose to have them there. Your only choice is whether to act on them and be hated or not to act on them and to be less happy.
I never meant homosexuality was a choice, I meant, like you said, you can choose to act on your desires. And therefore my question still stands, why should he not give people that genetic makeup as that would remove the desires they have and remove from them the free will to act on those desires? Should he not give them the DNA that would give them sexual attraction to other men, if he didn't give people that genetic makeup they would't have even the ability to decide to act on their desires?
Also I believe there must be some cases (definitely a minority of cases) where homosexuality was a life choice, not based on genetics, maybe I'm wrong there, but do you have definitive proof some cases people don't just decide that is what they want?
Also you stated it may be genetically based in you original posts on the matter. I have no knowledge on the subject so: is it based on genetics or is it only a theory/hypothesis at this point in science?
Because if they don't have that genetic makeup, then they won't feel thwarted or left out. If only sexual attraction to the opposite sex is reasonable, as God plainly thinks from the Bible, why are there even people there who are gay or bi? It is random whether you're gay or not, and so, if God created everyone, and God therefore created gay people, then why did he create people with desires he then considers it a sin to act on? That's effectively a form of torture.

As to the genetics question, no actual 'gay gene' has been discovered at this time. I didn't actually say it was genetic - I said it was inbuilt. Fast difference. It could be it's something to do with genetics, or it could be something to do with hormones, or brain chemistry, or something we don't actually know about or understand now. The simple fact of the matter is that it is inbuilt, even if we don't understand why yet (I personally really hope that science does discover an explanation soon, both to satisfy my scientific curiosity and to give the homophobes out there even less grounds on which to claim it a life choice).

Let me use heterosexual attraction as an example. You don't choose what women you're physically attracted to, do you? You don't take in the physical characteristics, think about it and then decide whether you find that woman attractive or not. You just look at them and there's some kind of unconscious pull - you can't help it, it's just there. Sometimes, by examining past experiences of what you found attractive before and what particularly drew your attention, you can work out why you found that woman attractive, but the simple fact of the matter is that it's just there - there was no conscious decision making involved. You can't decide to find someone attractive if you don't, and we haven't conclusively discovered what makes some specific physical characteristics attractive to some people but not others either. Different sexualities are basically the same, only more pronounced, and really, you never chose to be straight, did you? You just were, inbuilt, and it's the same with being gay or bi.

Quote:
Originally Posted by greygnarl View Post
But why would a just God choose to cut certain people out of "taking a small part in the creation of life?" and give them a desire that can never be fulfilled without sinning?

As for making a choice, that's simply not true. Some people might think they are homosexual and realize they aren't, or they could think they're heterosexual and realize they're homosexual. Plus, it's not like it's either or. See the Kinsey Scale.
Precisely to both points - the Kinsey Scale especially. Varying degrees of bisexuality is something that's seemed to be the case to me for a while now - cool to know there's a scientific chart for it, I didn't know that before.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by greygnarl View Post
But why would a just God choose to cut certain people out of "taking a small part in the creation of life?" and give them a desire that can never be fulfilled without sinning?
Not going to wade any deeper into this discussion here, but as far as this particular argument goes, it doesn't actually prove much. We all have desires we can never fulfill without sinning.
Yes, but the differences with many desires like that is that you'd be hurting someone - homosexual or bisexual attraction is not harmful, at least no more so than heterosexual attraction. The one and only difference is that homosexual encounters can never result in reproduction - that's it.


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Last edited by Lazy Orang; January 15th, 2014 at 07:40 AM.
  #359  
Old January 15th, 2014, 07:37 AM
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Re: Any other childfree people here?

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Originally Posted by flameslayer93 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by capsocrates View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by greygnarl View Post
But why would a just God choose to cut certain people out of "taking a small part in the creation of life?" and give them a desire that can never be fulfilled without sinning?
Not going to wade any deeper into this discussion here, but as far as this particular argument goes, it doesn't actually prove much. We all have desires we can never fulfill without sinning.
How many of these desires also prevent happiness for all eternity however? You do not need to answer this of course, caps, as there are others who will gladly answer it.

Not many - only homosexuality is coming to mind.

I see nothing wrong with being a homosexual. If it is best left as sin, then come journey to hell of your own volition. Much like God has the right to condemn you to Hell, you have the right to not be bothered by it. Punishment means nothing if you scoff and dust it off your shoulder.

Why does he have the right to condemn you to Hell if you aren't doing anything wrong? I don't see the logic there. I'm glad we can agree that there's nothing wrong with homosexuality, though.

Of course, I believe that humanity will be its own demise. That the emd of the world will occur far after humans are extinct. ^_~

Sadly, I have to agree here, though I wish I didn't. Between being at each others throats all the time, destroying the environment, exacerbating Global Warming and stuff like Fukushima, humanity doesn't stand a chance in hell, and it will be it's own doing.
Replies in bold.

EDIT: Final note - the Bible technically only references 'men lying with other men' when it comes to homosexuality - so presumably lesbianism's fine in God's eyes! Seems a weird distinction.


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Last edited by Lazy Orang; January 15th, 2014 at 07:51 AM.
  #360  
Old January 15th, 2014, 08:08 AM
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Re: Any other childfree people here?

As before, I feel that he has the right to condemn you simply because he can. If, say, a mortal could kill God completely at their own discretion, then they would have the right to kill him. And so on and so forth. It is a terribly vicious cycle, yes. But it is way God imagined it.

This is all assuming that God does exist in the manner we know of him.

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Last edited by flameslayer93; January 15th, 2014 at 08:09 AM. Reason: Heaven can be Hell just as Hell can be Heaven
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