Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

[NecroBlade]

the difference between his stats and that of the other Lawmen

Finn, Thorgrim, and Eldgrim say 'hi'.





Oh wait, those aren't even vikings, they're Human Champions. You know with the same stats as these guys:






Just like Monks:







And Ninjas:







At least there wasn't a bunch of testing done to show that 2 Defense dies a little too easy, and there aren't thematic reasons for him to have other stat changes too, like being the Sheriff.

[Lazy Orang]

Originally Posted by NecroBlade

Finn, Thorgrim, and Eldgrim say 'hi'.





Oh wait, those aren't even vikings, they're Human Champions. You know with the same stats as these guys:






Just like Monks:







And Ninjas:







At least there wasn't a bunch of testing done to show that 2 Defense dies a little too easy, and there aren't thematic reasons for him to have other stat changes too, like being the Sheriff.

I'm absolutely with you here, chap. That feels like a remarkably petty reason to Nay this design, especially when you consider the thematic justifications and number of counter-examples.

[Pumpkin_King]

I feel the same, honestly, but I’m glad someone else brought it up before I did.

[Kinseth]

Originally Posted by capsocrates

I think the synergy in question is something for the judges to consider in testing.

Sure, but it still has to pass a unified review first. I will nay vote it strictly because it is a demon. If it were something else, such as Fiend, Oni etc(whatever is appropriate.) id up vote it.

[flameslayer93]

Originally Posted by Kinseth

Sure, but it still has to pass a unified review first. I will nay vote it strictly because it is a demon. If it were something else, such as Fiend, Oni etc(whatever is appropriate.) id up vote it.

Why is being a demon an automatic nay vote?

Also, if Demon is bad, would Ogre work Astro?

[caps]

For what it's worth, I am not the only judge who had this feedback. I also don't know why "being a sheriffs" is a thematic justification for having a pistol that doesn't shoot as far as everyone else. Or hitting harder or being tougher, for that matter. I pointed out that one change is justifiable from a gameplay perspective, and I would probably push for attack 3, since he doesn't have the same punch as the other cowboys. Then again, his "punch" is making all the other cowboys attack at once. 3 defense, to give him more staying power could make sense. But stick with the change you *need* to make; don't just change things willy nilly.

Originally Posted by Scytale

Clayton Pierce by Discord group

A leader for the cowboys of Heroscape has long been requested for inclusion into Valhalla Customs. Though this desire has been far from unanimous; some don't like the idea of "factionalizing" all of Heroscape, myself included. At the very least, though, a sheriff leading a posse is very thematic and very Heroscape.

Balance

I don't know how to theoryscape Clayton. While his stats are subpar for the price, obviously his value is in his powers. While controlling leader figures are nothing new, the Sheriff goes about it rather differently than others, relying on everyone else to do their own thing outside of the once-per-round moves and attacks. Balance here has to come down to actual play experience, but even that is questionable due to the varying power he can demonstrate with new Lawmen. From my testing, the point value seemed passable without raising any red flags about future synergies.

Theme

The design team aimed for two very clear themes: the posse and the shootout, and nailed both of them. The once-per-round movement with Sheriff's Posse definitely gives the feeling of leading an old west posse. The oddity of the figures having to end their movement near him is made up for with how it plays; it wouldn't feel nearly as thematic if Clayton could hang behind and send out his lackeys. It really feels like he's leading them. On top of that, while a Shootout power could be implemented in different ways, this version has a great thematic feel of a western gunfight. Theme is spot-on in gameplay.

Creativity

This design one went round and round for a while, and is still on the wordy side, but Mr. Pierce does manage to feel different and interesting compared to Heroscape's other leader units. Ultimately it's just a leader that gives other units bonus movements and attacks, but the timing is different, and there is value in putting order markers on other Lawmen. I should clarify: whether or not the design appears unique is actually irrelevant; the design plays uniquely, and that's what matters.

Playability

Obviously you want to make the most of Clayton's abilities when using him, which makes army building strictly limited at this time with only three other Lawmen in existence. And two of them very similar, no less. That's just how things are, at least for now.

Which makes Sheriff's Posse of limited usefulness, at least on smaller maps. That's not to say it isn't appreciated though; like Orc Battle Rush, that initial movement is huge, especially when trying to get a crew of Lawmen heroes into position. In theory with more Lawmen you could use Clayton as a midway launching point to high ground, though the limitations of Shootout make that mostly undesirable. However, the ability to move Clayton back first to "call in reinforcements" as part of Posse could be both thematic and helpful, some day.

Shootout is actually rather interesting. Often enough you do use it on the first order marker to have the greatest impact on the round, but that isn't always the best option. If there aren't many enemies in range, or you still need to get your own figures up on height, it may be better to hold off for a later, more impactful turn. Of course, that does come with a risk. I quite liked the decisions it caused, and it was extremely helpful in making the team effective despite their limited individual capabilities.

As I was testing, though, something started to nag at me, and it grew worse and worse as I continued to test. Here are the Move/Range/Attack/Defense stats for Pierce and the other Lawmen:

5/7/2/2
5/7/2/2
5/7/2/2
5/6/3/3

There is a simple similarity between the existing Lawmen. Their statline helps make them feel similar, despite not being synergistically bound. Clayton Pierce doesn't fit the mold. These things can, of course, be explained away: he has a stronger, less-range gun, he's more nimble than the others, etc. The problem I had is the more I played, the more I had to keep repeating these justifications to myself. He really is the odd man out, despite being the leader.

I know I'm being somewhat hypocritical about this. Deadeye Dan doesn't follow the statline, nor does Garrett Burns or Josie Whistletop (though, in my defense, none of these are Lawmen). Dan's sniper rifle is obviously different, but I don't know what's special about Garrett's high-powered gun or Josie's crap range. But all of these at least also share the Defense 2 value. If it was just one of Clayton's stats, it wouldn't bother me, even if it was Defense. But having all of them different than the other Lawmen just felt wrong, even though the differences have value to the design.

Summary

I didn't want the Lawmen to get a leader unit, but Clayton Pierce proved me wrong. The moveout with Sheriff's Posse is thematically on-point, and Shootout is both thematic and provides a meaningful tactical choice. I really like what he brings to the table. But he just doesn't feel like a Lawman with his stats (Defense especially). He's a real lead-by-example kind of guy, which makes the differences stand out all the more. I think Clayton is one step away from being the cowboy leader the game wants, and would like to see him back with adjustments. Or pass as he is, if the other Judges don't have the same hangup I do.

I vote Nay to induct Clayton Pierce into the SoV.

[caps]

Originally Posted by Kinseth

Sure, but it still has to pass a unified review first. I will nay vote it strictly because it is a demon. If it were something else, such as Fiend, Oni etc(whatever is appropriate.) id up vote it.

This seems like an unnecessary knee jerk reaction to me, but I think further discussion of this belongs elsewhere

[NecroBlade]

Originally Posted by capsocrates

For what it's worth, I am not the only judge who had this feedback. I also don't know why "being a sheriffs" is a thematic justification for having a pistol that doesn't shoot as far as everyone else. Or hitting harder or being tougher, for that matter. I pointed out that one change is justifiable from a gameplay perspective, and I would probably push for attack 3, since he doesn't have the same punch as the other cowboys. Then again, his "punch" is making all the other cowboys attack at once. 3 defense, to give him more staying power could make sense. But stick with the change you *need* to make; don't just change things willy nilly.

There was a reason I took your name out of the quote: I was responding to the criticism not the critic. His pistol doesn't shoot as far so he has to be that much closer to the action, as a lead-from-the-front type of sheriff. It also makes sense that the strongest Lawman would prove himself worthy of being promoted.



You also said you could maybe see two stat changes. In which case why not 5/7/3/3? Now the only differences are his attack and defense. Better Attack is needed because he doesn't have a special attack (or double attack) for punch like the others. Better Defense is needed because he just didn't quite have the toughness needed in testing.







Re: Masha: I agree that any potential Demon interactions seem more worthy of being figured out in testing rather than hard No's.

[Scytale]

Originally Posted by NecroBlade

You also said you could maybe see two stat changes. In which case why not 5/7/3/3? Now the only differences are his attack and defense. Better Attack is needed because he doesn't have a special attack (or double attack) for punch like the others. Better Defense is needed because he just didn't quite have the toughness needed in testing.

I was pretty torn on Clayton. I really liked how he played, which was almost surprising to me. But the more I played, the more the stats just seemed wrong. Like I was in a perpetual Sesame Street "one of these things is not like others" game.

At the same time I recognized the reason for the higher Attack and the reason for the higher Defense. Gameplay-wise both are good for him. But dang, he just didn't feel like he fit in the team he was leading.

Yeah, it's a petty reason, I won't deny it. And I felt crappy making the decision. But my job is to judge whether or not the unit is the best of the best, and I just couldn't convince myself he was. Like an awesome car with a big dent in the side.

At 5/7/3/3 I probably would have passed him. Not really all that happily, but probably yes. As much as I hate to admit it, as I'm all about simplicity and letting stats handle things, I really craved 5/7/2/2 and a power like Battle Fury to fill the needs.

[Captain Stupendous]

Originally Posted by Kinseth

Sure, but it still has to pass a unified review first. I will nay vote it strictly because it is a demon. If it were something else, such as Fiend, Oni etc(whatever is appropriate.) id up vote it.

I'm also a little confused why a unit being a demon would be an automatic no? I realize that c3v is currently developing a demon faction, and from what I've seen pass through the public playtesting thread, I realize he will synergize with the cultists (pretty sure they had some form of demon bonding from what I remember?), but even then, it didn't seem like the interaction would be all that powerful and could just be evaluated in playtesting.

If the reason is more of a thematic preference for avoiding cross-faction synergies, then I just wanted to voice how I find that concerning. I absolutely love the work of c3v and SoV and the numerous ways they've improved and continued the game of Heroscape. Pretty much the only potential negative that I've seen has been the development of more and more factions that are designed to be more or less standalone, with powerful but also exclusive synergy webs that tend to account for almost all the points in a given army.

For me, one of the most fun and unique things about Heroscape has always been getting to see huge varieties of fighters all working together in a single army. And when that was encouraged by cross-faction synergy, I saw that as a good thing. I love sending my airborne elites into battle alongside Marcus Decimus Gallus and Kursus. Sure, it may not be the most competitive composition, but having cross-faction synergies is fun and opens up new options for creative army building.

I do recognize that there are more units and discussions happening behind the c3v curtain that are related to this discussion, so I expect any of my thoughts to be taken with a grain of salt. Hopefully a little bit of an outside perspective is still useful though. Thank you to all of the designers, judges, and people who participate in C3V and SoV! I know its a large investment of time and your work is appreciated by many

[Pumpkin_King]

Originally Posted by Scytale

At 5/7/3/3 I probably would have passed him. Not really all that happily, but probably yes. As much as I hate to admit it, as I'm all about simplicity and letting stats handle things, I really craved 5/7/2/2 and a power like Battle Fury to fill the needs.

Would he have passed with three powers?

[Kinseth]

Originally Posted by capsocrates

This seems like an unnecessary knee jerk reaction to me, but I think further discussion of this belongs elsewhere

I guess I could be persuaded to let the SOV judges decide the fate, I will try to keep an open mind in the IS review.