Heroscapers
Go Back   Heroscapers > Official Valhalla HeroScape > Official Units
Official Units Discussion of official HeroScape units

Notices


View Poll Results: Which unit is better?
Nilfheim 35 76.09%
Quahon 11 23.91%
Voters: 46. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #25  
Old May 28th, 2020, 05:56 AM
Foudzing's Avatar
Foudzing Foudzing is offline
Online HS Seasons 3 and 7 Champion
 
Join Date: June 17, 2010
Location: France - Paris
Posts: 1,478
Images: 1
Foudzing is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Foudzing is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Foudzing is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Foudzing is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Foudzing is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Foudzing is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Foudzing is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Foudzing is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Foudzing is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Foudzing is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla
Re: Unit Debate #71 Nilfheim vs Quahon

In my tournaments games where Nilf has been played (wether it's by me or my opponent) he has 7 wins and 8 losses.
Now Quahon is blasting a 100% winrate at 6 wins and 0 loses.
Most if this was online and in my experience players are MUCH better online, like it's not even close. First because players have regular training and after 6 month to 1 year of online play you become super skilled, and secondly because as you stated they have a full week to prep for the game so basic mistakes like getting the machup wrong will happen very rarely.

I only track my games not every game in the world sorry, so I can't deliver you more stats to you but it's just my impression but I am sure it's true. We could spend an afternoon tracking everything but I bet you anything you want that Quahon has a much better winrate than Nilf, no matter what the format, build, map etc... is.
Granted, part of that is because Quahon is underestimated while Nilf is overestimated but still I feel part of that is because Quahon is actually better.

I've had numerous game where the Nilf player was like "huh If had Quahon instead of Nilf it would be so much better here" whereas it just does not happen in a Quahon game.
The situations where Ice Shards could hit 3 figures while Lightning Breath could not are extremly rare, it basically never happens, whereas the opposite is like common.
Lightning Breath is just much much better than Ice Shards and the little added survavibility and move of Nilf just does not make up for it.

As you stated, the gameplay of any dragon, is basically "shoot at multiple stuff while being in security" and in my experience Quahon is better at that than Nilfheim.

The only instance where Nilf is better is vs stuff like Cyprien where his 6 attack and 4 defense really is useful vs Quahon 5 attack 3 defense. But if you play Quahon with spiders you Can afford stuff like Sujoah/Wyverns to take care of stuff like Cyprien.

I'm not sure you realize how much the spiders build is strong, at first I was like "huh Rae+GSW is obviously better" but after playing with and against it multiples times aswell as watching it multiple times I actually think the spider build is the powerhouse for Quahon.


Last edited by Foudzing; May 28th, 2020 at 06:37 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old May 29th, 2020, 12:02 AM
caps's Avatar
caps caps is offline
My six-year-old sister-in-law calls the shots
 
Join Date: October 6, 2010
Location: USA - CO - Denver area
Posts: 16,674
Images: 352
caps is a man of the cloth caps is a man of the cloth caps is a man of the cloth caps is a man of the cloth caps is a man of the cloth caps is a man of the cloth caps is a man of the cloth caps is a man of the cloth caps is a man of the cloth caps is a man of the cloth caps is a man of the cloth caps is a man of the cloth caps is a man of the cloth caps is a man of the cloth caps is a man of the cloth
Re: Unit Debate #71 Nilfheim vs Quahon

Quahon is a she.

Formerly known as capsocrates
--
Remixed Master Sets - challenge yourself with new terrain combinations!
--
Colorado Fall 2023 Multiplayer Madness
--
caps's Customs Redux - caps's multiplayer maps - caps's maps - Seagate

--
Continuing Classic Heroscape: C3V SoV
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old May 30th, 2020, 03:10 PM
dok's Avatar
dok dok is offline
GenCon Main Event Champion - 2010, 2011, & 2017
 
Join Date: October 9, 2008
Location: USA - CO - Denver
Posts: 23,737
Images: 112
Blog Entries: 17
dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth
Re: Unit Debate #71 Nilfheim vs Quahon

Quote:
Originally Posted by superfrog View Post
Maneuverability -> miniscule advantage Quahon (easier to fit on height near obstacles)
In my experience Quahon is actually more difficult to fit on crowded maps. Her wings and tail both prevent placement in certain orientations, and even her nose gets in the way if you try to, say, put her against a wall. This is one reason I suspect Quahon is slightly overvalued in the online meta, because people who haven't handled her in real life get away with putting her places where she shouldn't fit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Knight of Scape View Post
Several people here have mentioned the fact that Quahon rolls once while Nilfheim rolls three times, making Quahon's attacks more swingy, which can be good or bad. In my opinion, though, the bigger difference between their special attacks is how they handle being engaged. If you engage Nilfheim with one figure, and Nilfheim's ice shard fails to kill that figure, Nilfheim can't attack anyone else that turn. If you engage Quahon with one figure, Quahon can attack that figure, and also chain his attack to hit someone up to six spaces away.
This is a big difference, and is why I'd argue Quahon is probably better against bonding melee. (And melee in general, but especially bonding melee.) In particular, if we are just comparing greenscale+Raelin+Dragon armies to one another, Quahon armies are going to be much stronger against knights or Heavies or Dwarves than Nilfheim armies will be. Nilf becomes vulnerable as soon as the bonding hero pokes a hole and a squad figure slides into it, but Quahon is comfortable handling that situation.

However, against more range-heavy armies, Nilfheim does a lot better. That extra point of defense and extra pip of range can be enormously significant, and ranged builds (outside of a few like 'trons) aren't built to engage the dragon. I have a very good shot of winning my spearmen vs. Greenscale matchup in the online Utah event if I replace my opponent's Nilfheim with Quahon, because Quahon wouldn't have been able to ping Raelin down without stepping off of height. I could have positioned a spearman 4 spaces from Raelin and forced difficult decisions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Foudzing View Post
In french tournaments Quahon +spiders build was very present and it always had a MUCH better showing than Zelrig+Greens or Nilf+Rats, Nilf+Greens+Rae was not brought because it's considered cheese but imo you need that kind of cheese to beat Quahon+Spiders an yet win is not guaranteed. If predator players gets lucky lightning sotrm or entangling web and is playing correctly, you'll lose no matter how well you play.
OK, well, you're evaluating a sub-optimal meta if Raelin can't be included. Once you include Raelin, backup heroes get priced out of the spider build, and the desire for more of a defensive shell does encourage use of Greenscales. Spiders are still very good though.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old May 31st, 2020, 04:14 AM
Cleon's Avatar
Cleon Cleon is offline
Baron of Beantown V
 
Join Date: April 25, 2007
Location: MA - Pittsfield
Posts: 4,550
Images: 15
Blog Entries: 4
Cleon is a penguin with a machine gun Cleon is a penguin with a machine gun Cleon is a penguin with a machine gun Cleon is a penguin with a machine gun Cleon is a penguin with a machine gun Cleon is a penguin with a machine gun Cleon is a penguin with a machine gun Cleon is a penguin with a machine gun Cleon is a penguin with a machine gun Cleon is a penguin with a machine gun Cleon is a penguin with a machine gun
Re: Unit Debate #71 Nilfheim vs Quahon

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
I view it as Nilfheim is slightly better, but they're very close in power. I'd take Nilfheim's 6life/6move/4defense stats over Quahon's 7life/5move/3defense. The Specials are debatable....Nilfheim's has an initial shot one space farther than Quahon's but has to stay within a 5 range radius while Quahon can extend to a bridge of 9 if the figures are aligned. Nilfheim gets 3 rolls and Quahon gets 1, but Quahon isn't bogged down by engagement nullifications. It seems to me like the SAs have their differences but I think they kind of even out. I think Nilf's is more consistent in that I see getting bogged down and missing that 1st shot as happening less than Quahon whiffing or only rolling 1 skull on her 1st and only shot. Quahon probably has more devastating turn peaks but I've played the game plenty to know Nilfheim has devastating turns just about every game. I'm not positive though, I can see an argument for either SA. Quahon's LoS is a bit more flexible I think. Also worth noting Nilf's 6 move makes it easier to do a suicide-disengage-swing turn to fly over and throw 6 or 7 dice at a key hero like Q9 which is an important option. 5 move will be harder to fulfill that (though Quahon's SA can potentially include that hero while still being bogged down). Nilf is 5pt. cheaper.

Quahon has Spiders but I don't really see that as a boost for Quahon, but rather a boost for the Spiders. It is an option though. It has some pros when comparing to the Greenscales.

They're both vying for best Dragon in my opinion but I think Nilf has the slight edge.
Commenting almost a year later...

Yeah, I think I still favor Nilfheim. The 4 defense is mainly what wins it for me, and I think the 6 move has significance. Their specials are pretty even. I think the flexibility and limitations of each’s range/setups have their pros and cons, either a radius of 5 or a string that can reach 9 but needs to be aligned properly, that seems even to me. Quahon rolls once for multiple and Nilf rolls 3 times but can get bogged down to rolling less....yeah I think if greenscales or rats or other things for screens didn’t exist then I see the obvious reasoning for Quahon there, but with screening by a good player and Nilfheim abusing his movement, getting bogged down can be lessened quite a bit. The 5 range on SA and 6 move help with this too, I think Quahon will get bogged down more with her numbers (not that it matters much for her, but just noting playing Nilfheim isn’t the exact same experience if you’re theorizing switching dragons around in games). Quahon has larger peaks with her SA, but with Nilfheim’s three attacks of 4 at 5 range, you consistently have large enough peaks that take care of most of the things you go up against. So I think what I’m getting at is the areas where Quahon appears very advantageous, Nilfheim can compensate enough where it’s not that much of an advantage.

With all that being said though Quahon is still a beast and I think it’s very close. She has maybe the most powerful turns within plausible luck out of any unit, besides maybe the hydra. I haven’t played that much of her especially with spiders in the mix, so I’m pretty open minded. There’s a lot going on in this debate - Nilf+Greenscales, Nilf+other, Quahon+Spiders, Quahon+Greenscales, Quahon+other. I really haven’t played with the Quahon predator build, I more thought she brought the spiders up much higher but I didn’t know/think it was at the greenscale level, but it looks like it’s high enough that it’s in the discussion for sure. A big Lightning Breath and an Entangling Web hit (plus spider attacks) in a single turn is crazy powerful, as is big Lightning Breath and just three additional attacks (spiders or greenscales).

It’s a very close call. I give it to Nilf but I view them as in the same tier, and close in the same tier. So either is fine with me. Kinda like Knights vs Heavies. But I really have to play her and against her more to be honest.

Last edited by Cleon; May 31st, 2020 at 04:51 AM.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   Heroscapers > Official Valhalla HeroScape > Official Units
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Unit Debate #15 -- Nilfheim Vs. Braxas MegaSilver Official Units 32 April 25th, 2019 03:25 PM
Unit Strategy Review: How to use Nilfheim Jexik Heroscape Strategy Articles 43 August 30th, 2011 03:05 AM
Unit Debate #22 -- Su-Bak-Na Vs. Tor-Kul-Na MegaSilver Official Units 29 September 30th, 2009 07:57 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:16 PM.

Heroscape background footer

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2024 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.