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  #25  
Old March 5th, 2014, 11:12 AM
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Re: Maklar the Silver Prince's Customs

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Originally Posted by Ixe View Post
80 pts sounds like a reasonable start given your reasoning. Pricing high variance units can be challenging in playtesting since they can sometimes perform extremely well and other times will be blown away almost immediately. I wouldn't be surprised if you could go under 80, even. 65 pts from before may have not been a terrible guess, but who knows.

Darrak Ambershard may not be a bad comparator. Granted he bonds with the axegrinders, but overall he has very similar stats and about comparable offense if we split the difference between his normal and Sneak Attack. He even has a d20 based wound avoidance, which is terrain dependent and overall less likely to trigger but doesn't involve a risk to your own units. It's still hard to say, but I'd guess that you'd be pretty safe trying Cormin at 65.
Very true. I hadn't even thought of Darrak Ambershard. However, that dwarf always felt like a steal to me for only 60 points, so for the moment I will try out Cormin at 80.

The beatings will continue until morale improves!

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  #26  
Old March 5th, 2014, 11:23 AM
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Re: Maklar the Silver Prince's Customs

Power rankings land Darrak pretty high up there, granted, though I think that comes from the fact that he bonds with a solid squad more than anything (and the fact that he is cheap). Still, there is nothing wrong with trying him at some other cost. It could be helpful to match him head to head against Darrak and get a feel for how they compare (in their respective armies). Having a side by side comparison in the middle of a game could help highlight the important differences between the two figures and help you see where one should fall relative to the other.
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  #27  
Old March 8th, 2014, 04:25 PM
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Re: Maklar the Silver Prince's Customs

I tested Cormin against Darrak in 300 point armies. I thought it would be a fight in the advantage of the dwarves, and it was, but this helped me see that Cormin and Darrak really aren't similar or comparable. Darrak bonds and hits hard, but he doesn't have great survivability on a map without shadows. Cormin, however, has much better survivability as long as your army is still around. He also functions as a versatile tool character, with the possibility for several options. In an army with counter-strike or the like, a swarm or common army will smash it. In an army with annoying little common figures, Cormin is a real pain, putting rats in harm's way to get extra scatters and get at the heart of the opponent to hit hard.

I think he's not as great as I had thought, but very close, so 75 points really looks just about spot on for him.

The beatings will continue until morale improves!

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  #28  
Old March 10th, 2014, 06:57 PM
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Re: Maklar the Silver Prince's Customs

Always nice to see a new face around here. Welcome to the world of Heroscape custom creation!

Fyrus

The price tag is very high when you look at his combat ability, but the ability to move all Elves is pretty intense. Moreso when you consider that as a Warlord, Fyrus can bond with Romans or Armocs on top of that. In huge games that's really awesome, but the price tag is still huge. The problem with it is that I wouldn't actually use him until late game. I'd rush forward with Armocs, leaving Fyrus in the starting zone to guarantee the elf movement, and only use him again later game.

2 Sword Defense is a neat upgrade of 1 Shield Defense, though the added ability won't come into play much. I highly recommend changing Elven War Charge to take place before his turn, to remove the memory mechanic and bring the bonus more in line with Movement Bonding powers. It should also say it does not affect himself, assuming it don't want it to.

Elite Alsho Mercenaries

What I said before about Fyrus getting bonus bonding activations goes double, triple with these guys. They will get the Elven War Charge movement followed by their own movement, and are close to unstoppable in melee combat. The way Defensive Agility combines with Counter Strike is this: the first shield blocks all skulls, then anything beyond the first shield is an auto-wound. That's a combination that will completely shut down some melee armies, especially if combined with defense boosts such as Raelin or Thorgrim's spirit. Alternatively, combine them with Acolarh for the high speed and chance to survive if they do die, and 100pts isn't nearly enough. Hired Bonding is a neat twist on bonding, but it is only a drawback if you put the bonded hero in harm's way. With cheerleaders like Fyrus or Acolarh, or long-range attackers like Syvarris, it's not a disadvantage at all.

Cormin the Dark

You should put Cormin in your first post for easy access.

It's a good design, though perhaps too cheap with 5 attack. Should be at least 75 with that attack power, I'd say. The later wording of the power renamed Façade still has some problems. The attacker cannot "must attack if possible" if it's already attacked, regardless of whether or not defense dice are rolled. Instead, you should change Façade to happen during the targeting phase, which I think is your intent:

Quote:
Façade 11
If Cormin the Dark is attacked by an opponent's figure's normal attack targeted for a normal attack from an opponent's figure, you may roll the twenty-sided die. If you roll an 11 or higher, choose a friendly small or medium figure within 4 spaces of Cormin the Dark. Switch Cormin the Dark and the chosen figure. The attacking figure must attack the chosen figure if possible. Figures moved by Façade 11 do not take leaving engagement strikes.
It can be a mean power, since you can swap with friendlies. Hey partner, sorry, but I'm going to swap with your Raelin.
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  #29  
Old March 10th, 2014, 07:12 PM
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Re: Maklar the Silver Prince's Customs

Thanks for the feedback!

I should probably remove those elf dudes. I've realized that they had problems, but forgot to reorganize my thread.

I'll get to it very soon, so hold anything about the Ullar Elves back for now. I'm gonna remove them and just concentrate on Cormin for now.

With Façade, can't I just substitute Attacked with targeted? I don't really have to jumble up the words, do I?

What do you think is a good point cost for Cormin? I would love to see just about where you put him. Façade is also not as great as it seems, as you are putting a friendly figure very much so in harms way. If the chosen figure is a rat, than sure, go for it. If its really anything else, even a figure like a samurai, I will often just let Cormin just take the wound. Don't forget about Stab In The Back as well! That's a factor.

Once again, thanks for telling me to update my first post. I'll get right to it.

The beatings will continue until morale improves!

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  #30  
Old March 10th, 2014, 07:16 PM
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Re: Maklar the Silver Prince's Customs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maklar the Silver Prince View Post
With Façade, can't I just substitute Attacked with targeted? I don't really have to jumble up the words, do I?
No, you don't have to jumble the words. In general though, it's best to follow official precedent when possible. I copied the wording from the Nakita Agents' Smoke Powder.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maklar the Silver Prince View Post
What do you think is a good point cost for Cormin? I would love to see just about where you put him.
Like I said, with his attacking power I wouldn't put him less than 75pts, probably more. A natural 5 attack is quite strong. If you drop it to 4 Attack, I could see him drop into the 60pt range. 65 maybe.
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  #31  
Old March 10th, 2014, 07:32 PM
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Re: Maklar the Silver Prince's Customs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scytale View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maklar the Silver Prince View Post
With Façade, can't I just substitute Attacked with targeted? I don't really have to jumble up the words, do I?
No, you don't have to jumble the words. In general though, it's best to follow official precedent when possible. I copied the wording from the Nakita Agents' Smoke Powder.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maklar the Silver Prince View Post
What do you think is a good point cost for Cormin? I would love to see just about where you put him.
Like I said, with his attacking power I wouldn't put him less than 75pts, probably more. A natural 5 attack is quite strong. If you drop it to 4 Attack, I could see him drop into the 60pt range. 65 maybe.
Wow, so an attack boost of 1 puts him up +10 points? Its just one attack, but I suppose it can be a great assassination tool. However, that 5 attack will just as easily be a bane to yourself, due to Stab In The Back.

Eh, who cares about the Nakita Agents. I'm trying not to be too mainstream.

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  #32  
Old March 10th, 2014, 09:03 PM
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Re: Maklar the Silver Prince's Customs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maklar the Silver Prince View Post
Wow, so an attack boost of 1 puts him up +10 points? Its just one attack, but I suppose it can be a great assassination tool. However, that 5 attack will just as easily be a bane to yourself, due to Stab In The Back.
I certainly believe so. Heroscape stats are not very granular; there's a pretty big difference between 4 Attack and 5 Attack when it comes to both consistency and damage potential. Note that the cheapest hero with 5 attack is the Ice Troll at 85pts, and the Kozukes are the only squad with that much natural attack power.
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  #33  
Old March 10th, 2014, 10:04 PM
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Re: Maklar the Silver Prince's Customs

5 attack is a lot for a single attack. I was suggesting Darrak as a point of comparison, however, who ideally operates at 6 attack although you have to work around for it. With bonding available, Hide in Shadows not having a downside of your units being hit (although with a terrain dependent success rate), and no chance of betrayal, I felt that the dwarf rogue overall had him beat was at even fewer pts.

I'm just not quite as sold that he must be significantly higher than Darrak given how I think he comes out weaker overall. I suppose he is a bit less conditional which can be factored in, but is it 15 pts worth? From my perspective, you have a few options: You can play it safe and set him on the high side. He may end up being a bit overcosted then and won't be as competitive of a hero, but you could still have fun with him and play him without pushing the game too far. You could set it lower and keep him as a solid option to turn to and a cheap way to give any army 5 attack. This will certainly raise him in the power rankings, but even an ultra cheap and competitive hero like Isamu (who is good because of his cost) can only accomplish so much. I think you'd have to go pretty low for this to ever be the case and not in ranges that we're currently discussing. Somewhere in the middle is the elusive perfect cost which gives an accurate reflection of his abilities and stats. It's a bit misleading since it can be highly dependent on the metagame of what armies get used, the formats used, and the size of the armies (and the fact that the game works on discrete steps of 5 pts). Nevertheless, playtesting is where you can really hone in on the final category, which is always a bit tricky with swingy units like Cormin who can be as good as they are hot on the d20 (and miserable if he betrays). With a lot of my units I make, I first take stabs a bit on the high side just to be safe and end up whittling it down if that is what the numbers are supporting.

Extremely flashy or swingy effects sometimes need to have a large cost associated with it because too easy access would be too dangerous even if it fails in the long run, and in some ways an attack of 5 is quite flashy. I am not necessarily sold that it can't exist at relatively low cost, but Scytale is absolutely right about how granular the values in the game can be and there is a significant difference between 4 and 5 attack and how that affects how a unit performs. In the end of the day, I am arguing over 10-15 pts which doesn't make the most significant impact on how the unit will be played. Even at 65 pts, I doubt he would ever be a competitive figure barring some strong future synergy with a solid bonding squad or some such, and you'd use him for about the same reasons and effectiveness at 75 as well.
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  #34  
Old March 10th, 2014, 10:58 PM
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Re: Maklar the Silver Prince's Customs

I'd like to point out that Cormin can use Façade to make your enemy attack a rat, allowing you to scatter all over the place. I don't think it's the 5 attack or survivability that make Cormin 75-ish points, it's the fact that he brings your army such a varying resulted and versatile ability. I think he could even be a bit more, but as is he isn't really overshadowing anyone for his point cost (besides Khosumet) and he is really overshadowed by the 70 point heroes.

The beatings will continue until morale improves!

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  #35  
Old March 12th, 2014, 08:50 PM
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Re: Maklar the Silver Prince's Customs

I updated Cormin so he can only use Façade 11 with figures you control. Not too much of a change, I just didn't want an endless Façade loop if your teammate also had Cormin.

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  #36  
Old March 14th, 2014, 05:15 PM
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Re: Maklar the Silver Prince's Customs

Updated the OP with Cormin's card. I'm doing some play testing with him at the moment, but as always, any suggestions would be great.

The beatings will continue until morale improves!

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