Heroscapers
Go Back   Heroscapers > Official Classic HeroScape > HeroScape General Discussion
HeroScape General Discussion General discussions of packaging, terrain, components, etc. If it doesn't fit in any other official category, put it here.


View Poll Results: Do you prefer large scale battles or small?
Large battle that takes days to complete 12 12.77%
Large battles that complete in one day 33 35.11%
Small battles that take a couple hours 48 51.06%
I dont battle, I run for cover 1 1.06%
Voters: 94. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #13  
Old August 31st, 2007, 03:06 PM
markwars's Avatar
markwars markwars is offline
Mintiest of the Minty
 
Join Date: May 10, 2006
Location: TX - Dallas (Denton)
Posts: 8,925
Images: 9
Blog Entries: 14
markwars wears ripped pants of awesomeness markwars wears ripped pants of awesomeness markwars wears ripped pants of awesomeness markwars wears ripped pants of awesomeness markwars wears ripped pants of awesomeness markwars wears ripped pants of awesomeness
[puts on old man disguise]

Back in 2005...when the DFW group first started meeting up we regularly built enormous maps. We soon discovered that we also regularly didn't finish games. We later discovered that playing armies of 400-500 points on small maps allowed us to play five or six games per gathering rather than "maybe one".

When my son and I play at home we sometimes use huge armies, but for play with the fellas I prefer quick maps with small armies so that I can play again and again.

Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old August 31st, 2007, 05:20 PM
Jexik's Avatar
Jexik Jexik is online now
Et tu, Jaxet?
 
Join Date: July 4, 2007
Location: IL - Elgin
Posts: 6,974
Images: 3
Blog Entries: 30
Jexik is hot lava death! Jexik is hot lava death! Jexik is hot lava death! Jexik is hot lava death! Jexik is hot lava death! Jexik is hot lava death! Jexik is hot lava death! Jexik is hot lava death! Jexik is hot lava death! Jexik is hot lava death! Jexik is hot lava death! Jexik is hot lava death! Jexik is hot lava death! Jexik is hot lava death!
Quote:
Originally Posted by markwars
I think the fact that there are only three order markers clearly indicates that this is a skirmish level game. Sure it's got unlimited potential to be modified for all kinds of play, but at its very core is one master set's worth of terrain and a handful of units.
I agree with this thought, and it also happens to be how I prefer to play. I'd rather play six 1-hour games than one 6-hour game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fomox View Post
(I've also played many matches with great, fun people who were using Q9. So using Q9 doesn't make you a tool. But being a tool sure seems to make you use Q9.)
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old August 31st, 2007, 05:33 PM
bluekitsune13 bluekitsune13 is offline
 
Join Date: May 10, 2006
Location: OH - Cleveland (Parma)
Posts: 694
bluekitsune13 has disabled reputation
Quote:
Originally Posted by markwars
[puts on old man disguise]

Back in 2005...when the DFW group first started meeting up we regularly built enormous maps. We soon discovered that we also regularly didn't finish games. We later discovered that playing armies of 400-500 points on small maps allowed us to play five or six games per gathering rather than "maybe one".

When my son and I play at home we sometimes use huge armies, but for play with the fellas I prefer quick maps with small armies so that I can play again and again.
Yeah, every time I would play a bigger map we never finish. We usually get bored halfway through! With SotM's campaign set up though, I find a lot of potential in linking the smaller skirmish maps together.

Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old August 31st, 2007, 05:43 PM
Dr. Weirdscaper's Avatar
Dr. Weirdscaper Dr. Weirdscaper is offline
If it doesn't use 20+ sets, you're not doing it right!
 
Join Date: July 10, 2007
Location: Laboratory of Dr. Weirdscaper- South Austin Shores
Posts: 2,000
Dr. Weirdscaper is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Dr. Weirdscaper is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Dr. Weirdscaper is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Dr. Weirdscaper is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Dr. Weirdscaper is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Dr. Weirdscaper is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Dr. Weirdscaper is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Dr. Weirdscaper is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla
GENTLEMEN...

I like big maps....

...and the sky is blue.


Dr. Weirdscaper is Kahn the Fire Death Knight in: World of WEIRDSCAPER.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old August 31st, 2007, 06:14 PM
Eclipse's Avatar
Eclipse Eclipse is offline
regurgitation cynic
 
Join Date: July 19, 2006
Location: Rochester, MN
Posts: 4,103
Eclipse wears ripped pants of awesomeness Eclipse wears ripped pants of awesomeness Eclipse wears ripped pants of awesomeness Eclipse wears ripped pants of awesomeness Eclipse wears ripped pants of awesomeness Eclipse wears ripped pants of awesomeness
Big maps have their place, but they're also not what the game was designed around. The game's mechanics operate best in a 1-3 Masterset range with armies of 300-600 points. Any more and you start to find troublesome imbalances, and weird situations where only a small part of your army takes place in a small skirmish. I find big maps are the most fun with multiple players. Armies are far more fluid in the 300-600 point range, so the 1200+ teams are best when they're controlled by multiple players.

That said, there's still a lot of fun to be had in the 1 on 1 games of 1200+ points with 5+ Mastersets and several expansions. A huge game takes quite a while, but you really get to flex some creative strategies. The hard part is getting a really good map for this. A really good mega map gives the player multiple fronts to fight on and defend. There's something really satisfying about juggling several battles at once. A good large scale map forces you to defend your start zone from multiple directions while still doing as much damage as possible to your opponent's figures. It can be a lot of fun if the map works out alright.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old November 10th, 2011, 01:34 PM
Typhon2222's Avatar
Typhon2222 Typhon2222 is offline
now with morh frostrating pun-ishment
 
Join Date: October 21, 2010
Location: USA - IL - Carbondale
Posts: 4,236
Images: 158
Typhon2222 is a penguin with a machine gun Typhon2222 is a penguin with a machine gun Typhon2222 is a penguin with a machine gun Typhon2222 is a penguin with a machine gun Typhon2222 is a penguin with a machine gun Typhon2222 is a penguin with a machine gun Typhon2222 is a penguin with a machine gun Typhon2222 is a penguin with a machine gun Typhon2222 is a penguin with a machine gun Typhon2222 is a penguin with a machine gun Typhon2222 is a penguin with a machine gun
Re: Big maps vs. small maps. and Heroscapes original intent.

Extreme necro revival here....

Just wanted to muse on the observation that, other things being equal, smaller maps are less punishing to melee.... Perhaps another indication that the designers envisioned the game being played most typically on small maps? The inherent advantages of ranged units seems less like a design flaw then....

Last edited by Typhon2222; November 10th, 2011 at 01:40 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old November 10th, 2011, 01:57 PM
kolakoski's Avatar
kolakoski kolakoski is offline
worthless thread clother
 
Join Date: July 15, 2008
Location: USA - NY - NYC
Posts: 4,601
Images: 3665
Blog Entries: 312
kolakoski is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla kolakoski is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla kolakoski is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla kolakoski is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla kolakoski is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla kolakoski is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla kolakoski is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla kolakoski is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla kolakoski is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla
Re: Big maps vs. small maps. and Heroscapes original intent.

Well met!

The OP said

I don't post all that often, and I prefer to lurk mostly, but I have a question that has been bugging me for some time now.

When I first started playing HS, I imagined a "Battle for all Time!!!" in which huge massive armies went up against each other. In my vision, I see several days to even play the type of battles I imagined.
The whole design of HS seems to support this and it is my belief that HS was originally meant to be played along those lines.

Now I know that money constraints as well as time are a big factor for the popularity of smaller maps. Tourneys are the same, and small maps make sense. Now I LOVE the big maps, and have a hard time playing on small maps. Has the original intent of the game been lost? Was that the original intent? I would love to hear the communitys' thoughts on this.

If this has been discussed, I apologize, but I was away from this site for a while.

Generally, when I'm creating big maps, LoS blockers, Shadow, Jungle, etc. are used to ensure that "other things being equal" is not the case. As to "Heroscpe[']s original intent," I don't think the game cares one way or the other. I prefer big maps and storytelling, but I enjoy tournament play as well, especially in the current environment, with its creative formatting.


Brax
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old November 10th, 2011, 02:08 PM
nyys's Avatar
nyys nyys is offline
quoting myself - insanity beckons
 
Join Date: June 21, 2007
Location: MA - South Shore
Posts: 15,222
Images: 2
nyys is a man of the cloth nyys is a man of the cloth nyys is a man of the cloth nyys is a man of the cloth nyys is a man of the cloth nyys is a man of the cloth nyys is a man of the cloth nyys is a man of the cloth nyys is a man of the cloth nyys is a man of the cloth nyys is a man of the cloth nyys is a man of the cloth nyys is a man of the cloth nyys is a man of the cloth nyys is a man of the cloth
Re: Big maps vs. small maps. and Heroscapes original intent.

I wish my Scape purchasing habits matched with my playing habits. I prefer to play 45min to 1hr games on BoV-like maps, but I buy enough of everything to cover so much more.

Boston Marathon 4/15/13 3:39:41
Last Race: Naragansett Running Festival 7/21/13 - Half Marathon - 1:50:01
Next Race: KeyBank Vermont Marathon 5/25/14
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old November 10th, 2011, 02:39 PM
dok's Avatar
dok dok is offline
GenCon Main Event Champion - 2010, 2011, & 2017
 
Join Date: October 9, 2008
Location: USA - CO - Denver
Posts: 20,826
Images: 108
Blog Entries: 17
dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth
Re: Big maps vs. small maps. and Heroscapes original intent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Typhon2222 View Post
Just wanted to muse on the observation that, other things being equal, smaller maps are less punishing to melee....
"Other things being equal" is a pretty slippery phrase in this concept.

The overall size and length of a map does not, in my opinion, have a profound effect its range/melee balance. It can have some marginal effects, like giving ranged figures a lot of room to run and gun in endgame. But a large map where the best spots are in the middle will benefit unique figures over common figures (with a couple exceptions like Zelrig).

The driving factor in range versus melee is things like positioning of LoS/choke points, the presence of shadow/jungle, and how quickly figures can move from outside range to engagement (i.e. how flat the map is, whether there is snow/ice/road/water/etc).

It's easy to design a small map where 4th Mass will crush knights and Heavies nearly every time. Just clear out the LoS blockers, put relative high ground in or near the startzones, and toss some water/snow/ice/undulating elevation changes into the middle of the map. Conversely, it's not too tough to design an epic 5-MS map where knights will crush the 4th nearly every time. Just make a big plateau of high ground in the middle, with roads winding around LoS blockers and jungle pieces.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Typhon2222 View Post
Perhaps another indication that the designers envisioned the game being played most typically on small maps? The inherent advantages of ranged units seems less like a design flaw then....
I wouldn't say the advantages of ranged units are a design flaw at all. They are reflected in the stats and costs of the figures.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old November 10th, 2011, 02:52 PM
kolakoski's Avatar
kolakoski kolakoski is offline
worthless thread clother
 
Join Date: July 15, 2008
Location: USA - NY - NYC
Posts: 4,601
Images: 3665
Blog Entries: 312
kolakoski is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla kolakoski is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla kolakoski is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla kolakoski is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla kolakoski is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla kolakoski is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla kolakoski is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla kolakoski is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla kolakoski is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla
Re: Big maps vs. small maps. and Heroscapes original intent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kolakoski View Post
Generally, when I'm creating big maps, LoS blockers, Shadow, Jungle, etc. are used to ensure that "other things being equal" is not the case. As to "Heroscpe[']s original intent," I don't think the game cares one way or the other. I prefer big maps and storytelling, but I enjoy tournament play as well, especially in the current environment, with its creative formatting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
"Other things being equal" is a pretty slippery phrase in this concept.

The overall size and length of a map does not, in my opinion, have a profound effect its range/melee balance. It can have some marginal effects, like giving ranged figures a lot of room to run and gun in endgame. But a large map where the best spots are in the middle will benefit unique figures over common figures (with a couple exceptions like Zelrig).

The driving factor in range versus melee is things like positioning of LoS/choke points, the presence of shadow/jungle, and how quickly figures can move from outside range to engagement (i.e. how flat the map is, whether there is snow/ice/road/water/etc).

It's easy to design a small map where 4th Mass will crush knights and Heavies nearly every time. Just clear out the LoS blockers, put relative high ground in or near the startzones, and toss some water/snow/ice/undulating elevation changes into the middle of the map. Conversely, it's not too tough to design an epic 5-MS map where knights will crush the 4th nearly every time. Just make a big plateau of high ground in the middle, with roads winding around LoS blockers and jungle pieces.
Well met!

Like I said . . .


Brax
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old November 10th, 2011, 03:07 PM
heroscaper2010's Avatar
heroscaper2010 heroscaper2010 is offline
HoSSpitable little wookiee (apparently "wookiee" has 2 E's, who knew?)
 
Join Date: September 19, 2010
Location: USA - OH - DOVER (Dundee
Posts: 7,983
Images: 7
heroscaper2010 is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla heroscaper2010 is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla heroscaper2010 is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla heroscaper2010 is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla heroscaper2010 is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla heroscaper2010 is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla heroscaper2010 is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla heroscaper2010 is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla heroscaper2010 is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla heroscaper2010 is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla
Re: Big maps vs. small maps. and Heroscapes original intent.

Well when I first started out, we always played basic. Here were our rules:

We put the cards in a box, and drew, whoever you got (even double) was your team. So once we got three SotM the Nagrubs were most feared . We'd build large maps and wage war. Our biggest game included, all of wave 2, 3, 8, 9, and some more, plus 2 RotV, 3 SotM, and 2 castles. Now that we play master it's small maps mostly that fit BoV map rules, 400-600pts.

My Maps
Tournament Record: 28-28: .500!
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old November 10th, 2011, 03:23 PM
Gurei-Ornery's Avatar
Gurei-Ornery Gurei-Ornery is offline
I reserve my inappropriate love for Heroscape.
 
Join Date: January 13, 2011
Location: USA - MD - Hagerstown
Posts: 2,421
Gurei-Ornery is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Gurei-Ornery is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Gurei-Ornery is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Gurei-Ornery is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Gurei-Ornery is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Gurei-Ornery is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Gurei-Ornery is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Gurei-Ornery is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Gurei-Ornery is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Gurei-Ornery is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla
Re: Big maps vs. small maps. and Heroscapes original intent.

I like the idea and the maps behind large battles, but my current 9 year-old playing partner has the attention span of a (insert favorite 10 micro second attention span bug here), so we play BoV, C3G, and our own Grishnak flavored maps.

One day (in the distant future, the year 2000, after the robotic uprising when there is no more unhappiness) I will make a map with all of our 15 RotV, 4 SotM, 4 BftU, 6 Marvel, and 4-6 each of the large terrain expansions and use one of these grabbers to reach everything in the middle.

My Trades/Good Traders
Boardgame Purge 10/03/14 Ongoing
Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   Heroscapers > Official Classic HeroScape > HeroScape General Discussion
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:51 AM.

Heroscape background footer

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.