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  #61  
Old May 27th, 2019, 10:30 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] UNIT NAME (Lantern Geists) - Design

I don't mind keeping these guys at 4 defense. I feel like your opponents targeting them to prevent you from getting those extra turns with big heroes is a natural part of play for a power like this.

Here's a more considered wording/mechanics proposal for the power:

Last Will
Whenever a Unique Hero you control within 4 clear sight spaces of an Honored Soulguide is destroyed, you may place that figure on this army card. Instead of taking a turn with the Honored Soulguides, you may choose a destroyed Unique Hero on this army card. Remove all wound markers from that figure's card, place them adjacent to an Honored Soulguide you control, and immediately take a turn with them. At the end of that turn, you must destroy the chosen Hero and an Honored Soulguide you control, if possible.

Wordier, but incorporates some other elements we've been discussing. One thing I would like to attempt, if possible, is a way to try and prevent a figure from being brought back twice with Last Will. I'm not too concerned about one last hurrah with Nilfheim, but two extra turns with him is a little worrying. This is slightly balanced out by the fact that your opponent can target the soulguides, though, so maybe it isn't a problem.

As for names, I don't know much about Norse Mythology around death other than Valkyrie stuff, which seems like a different thing entirely from these guys. Thinking about what planet they're from should definitely be a consideration, though.
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  #62  
Old May 27th, 2019, 10:53 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] UNIT NAME (Lantern Geists) - Design

To prevent using the same figure twice,

Quote:
Whenever a Unique Hero you control within 4 clear sight spaces of an Honored Soulguide is destroyed, if that Hero was not placed with Last Will, you may place that figure on this army card. Instead of taking a turn with the Honored Soulguides, you may choose a destroyed Unique Hero on this army card. Remove all wound markers from that figure's card, place them adjacent to an Honored Soulguide you control, and immediately take a turn with them. At the end of that turn, you must destroy the chosen Hero and an Honored Soulguide you control, if possible.

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  #63  
Old May 27th, 2019, 11:01 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] UNIT NAME (Lantern Geists) - Design

Quote:
Guiding Lights
Whenever a Unique Hero you control within 4 clear sight spaces of an Honored Soulguide is destroyed, if that figure was not previously placed with Last Will, you may place that figure on this Army Card.

Last Will
Instead of taking a turn with the Honored Soulguides, you may remove a Unique Hero from this Army Card. Remove all wound markers from that figure's card, place them adjacent to an Honored Soulguide you control, and immediately take a turn with them. At the end of that turn, you must destroy the chosen Hero and an Honored Soulguide you control.
I think that by specifying "remove" here, we can stop the same hero from being brought back twice, as unlikely as it may be (in addition to them being heavily encouraged to be on the battlefield by putting a 4 space restriction on Last Will, the remaining one will have to not be destroyed while staying close enough for enemies to be in the threat range of the chosen hero).

Edit: Like NB noted, we can also add a clause to stop a figure that just took a turn with Last Will from being destroyed and put back on the card.

I think that separating AYP's Last Will into two powers (in the vein of the Ebon Armor) also lets us get Guiding Lights onto the card, which is an important part of the theme to me if we're going with Jandar. The two parts also feel different enough (with separate activation points) to justify it.
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  #64  
Old May 27th, 2019, 11:04 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] UNIT NAME (Lantern Geists) - Design

Hmm, having a power that in and of itself doesn't really do anything seems odd to me, but I'll accept the Ebon Armor Precedent.

Real question is, can we reasonably fit all this text onto a card with Stealth Flying?
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  #65  
Old May 28th, 2019, 12:28 AM
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Re: [Pod 0] UNIT NAME (Lantern Geists) - Design

Honestly I was thinking the Soulguides would be native to Valhalla.
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  #66  
Old May 28th, 2019, 12:59 AM
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Re: [Pod 0] UNIT NAME (Lantern Geists) - Design

Agreed on them being native to Valhalla, especially if we go with a Norse theme.

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Your Pie View Post
Hmm, having a power that in and of itself doesn't really do anything seems odd to me, but I'll accept the Ebon Armor Precedent.

Real question is, can we reasonably fit all this text onto a card with Stealth Flying?
We also have the Skeletons of Annellintia as another example for separating the placement of a figure on an Army Card from some kind of revival. I think that it just feels neater because they are inherently two different actions with two different triggers; one placing a figure when it gets destroyed, and the other removing a figure to take a turn with it instead of the ghosts. It's not the end of the world if we decide to lump them into one power, but I'd rather not.

I dropped the text into Xorlof's Card Creator to get a quick visual, and it does look a bit dense. Combining the powers saves a little space, but it still looks like a sizable block of text.
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  #67  
Old May 28th, 2019, 01:14 AM
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Re: [Pod 0] UNIT NAME (Lantern Geists) - Design

The easiest thing to take away to reduce the text count here is the whole "place figures on the card, bring back figures from the card" mechanic. I think not using that is thematically workable--they're giving the dead a second chance, not storing souls to unleash later. Whether or not it leads to interesting gameplay is an open question but it's an option on the table.

A wilder idea would be to cut stealth flying from the card. This would be inconsistent with all other heroscape ghosts, but the figures are at least sellable as walking specters rather than flying ones. We'd probably still end up giving them Phantom Walk instead, but that would still trim a fair few lines when taking next to the wordy Stealth Flying. And Leaf_It's Specters of Aldorn have been fairly well received by the SoV even without Stealth Flying, though they have a more pointed mechanical reason for it.
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  #68  
Old May 28th, 2019, 02:25 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] UNIT NAME (Lantern Geists) - Design

I think we can cut Guiding Lights and roll it into one power to save space.

EDIT: Didn’t see the second card Astro made. I think that looks good. A card like Mimring looks complex, but only because of Flying.
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  #69  
Old May 30th, 2019, 08:13 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] UNIT NAME (Lantern Geists) - Design

Yeah that second card does look pretty good. It could work as two powers, but it works just as well as one, IMO.

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  #70  
Old June 2nd, 2019, 04:01 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] UNIT NAME (Lantern Geists) - Design

I was researching suitable Norse-inspired names, but I'm not finding many compelling options. My favorite so far is Huginn and Muninn, Odin's two ravens that represent him sending his mind and thought out into the world, but it's not a perfect name in the way that I would like. Valkyries were known to carry warriors on to the afterlife, but that is hardly a naming option for HeroScape's version of Valhalla.

I think that we might be better off with just keeping Honored Soulguides (or even something like Ancestral Guides or some other variation) rather than trying to link it to the actual Valhalla. I'm fine with keeping the name Honored Soulguides as the final name if it doesn't bother anyone.

I'm not a fan of cutting Stealth Flying, personally. I feel like it's a staple for ghosts in HeroScape, and I'd need a more compelling reason to use Phantom Walk instead than saving space (which is a very important consideration, although I think the design could be improved in other ways).
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  #71  
Old June 5th, 2019, 07:27 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] UNIT NAME (Lantern Geists) - Design

My two cents/questions:
what's the point about the "remove wound markers" stuff? why would you care about them since he's going to die at the end of the turn?

and instead of "instead of taking a turn" could it be "before taking a turn" to give them one more chance to do something if they are being sacrificed and hopefully place the hero in a good spot? (maybe that's too powerful?)

also, since it's so wordy and really separate abilities, I think for readability, the powers should be split.
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  #72  
Old June 5th, 2019, 07:46 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] UNIT NAME (Lantern Geists) - Design

Thanks for chiming in, @Phantom .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phantom View Post
My two cents/questions:
what's the point about the "remove wound markers" stuff? why would you care about them since he's going to die at the end of the turn?
Removing the wounds is cleaner and clears up potential confusion for powers reliant on wounds (if a figure with 1 life left takes 2 wounds, do you place 1 marker on them and destroy them or place both markers?). For example, Krug wouldn't get extra attack dice for technically being dead, and Capt. John Varan wouldn't get extra attacks for his wounds. It also follows the precedent set by the Revenant's Tome Treasure Glyph.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phantom View Post
and instead of "instead of taking a turn" could it be "before taking a turn" to give them one more chance to do something if they are being sacrificed and hopefully place the hero in a good spot? (maybe that's too powerful?)

also, since it's so wordy and really separate abilities, I think for readability, the powers should be split.
Taking another turn with a hero such as Major Q9 or Nilfheim is already very powerful. If they're turning out to be underpowered, I'm personally more interested in either removing the self-sacrifice or lowering the cost, but letting them still take a turn is another direction we could consider.

I do agree that the powers should be split, but the consensus seems to be that it's not worth making the text smaller. It's a small enough difference that it's looking like it'll come down to personal preference.
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