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Old June 12th, 2012, 05:11 PM
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Green & Copper Wyrmlings - Vote & Collaborate

Many people have made Green Wyrmling or Copper Wyrmling customs that are mini versions of Charos, Mimring, or other Dragons, and they mostly use D&D miniature either Giants of Legend #01 Bronze Wyrmling or War of the Dragon Queen #14 Small Copper Dragon


The miniatures are not available in enough quantities to be nominated for SoV or C3V, but I would still like a decision on either picking one already made card for each figure as the best or a collaborative card design so we can get an "official unofficial" card design. Below are the ones I could find posted on Heroscapers. Pick your favorite, post comments or suggestion, and/or post your own creation. Also see the thread Green Wyrmling discussion and playtesting.
Based of Charos:
killercactus:

Super Bogue

LeftOn4ya: (Version 2 & 1)

chief:

Wild_Imagination:

Sertorius and Typhon2222's:


Based of Mimring or other dragons:
Sertorius and Typhon2222's:

Super Bogue

Krysto2002:

Betawolf
Copper Wyrmling
Spoiler Alert!

Last edited by lefton4ya; July 7th, 2014 at 08:36 PM.
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Old June 12th, 2012, 05:15 PM
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Re: Green & Copper Wyrmlings - Vote & Collaborate

Note the subtle differences:
Based of Charos:
Killercactus is credited with creating the wording to fledgling counterstrike that does a max of one damage. His is 3/5 @ 30 points
Super Bogue and myself made one with KC's fledgling counterstrike power but 4/4 @ 35 points.
I made a second version that removes Wyrmling Bonding to compensate for discussion of SoV playtests that said he was too powerful with the 4th mass as well as a brood of Green Wyrmlings against a melee army. Still bonds with other wyrmlings, so you need mixture.
chief's is 4/4 @ 35 points, but his fledgling counterstrike is different in that it can do more than 1 damage but only works on small & medium figures.
Wild_Imagination has normal counter strike and is 4/4 @ 30 points.
Sertorius and Typhon2222's has normal counter strike and is 4/3 @ 35 points with one extra power that gives double attack on certain maps.

Based of Mimring
Sertorius and Typhon2222's is 3/3 @ 30 points and SA has fire line range of 5 and attack of 3.
Super Bogue's is 3/3 @ 30 points and SA has fire line range of 4 and attack of 2.
Betawolf's is 3/3 @ 40 points and SA has fire line range of 4 and attack of 3.

Based of Othkurik
Krysto2002's is 3/4 @ 35 points and SA has a range of 4 and attack of 2 and can attack one adjacent.

Last edited by lefton4ya; June 13th, 2012 at 02:23 AM.
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  #3  
Old June 12th, 2012, 06:32 PM
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Re: Green & Copper Wyrmlings - Vote & Collaborate

I am a fan of Super Bogue's Copper Wyrmling. I think 3 dice fire line is too powerful for a little mimring. I could see reducing defense to 2 and lowering to 25 points too.

The Green will always have lots of debate. I like a one-wound, small and medium restriction. 4/4 stats make more sense as well. So really, I like none of those listed the best, but combining them would be neat.

I don't like removing Bonding since all the other Wyrms have bonding. I am not a fan of the uncommon hero either, also because it differentiates it from the other little dragons too much.

Good idea for a thread, Lefton4ya. Shame availability is too low on these guys, lets hope for a reprint.
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Old June 12th, 2012, 08:07 PM
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Re: Green & Copper Wyrmlings - Vote & Collaborate

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arch-vile View Post
I am a fan of Super Bogue's Copper Wyrmling. I think 3 dice fire line is too powerful for a little mimring. I could see reducing defense to 2 and lowering to 25 points too.

The Green will always have lots of debate. I like a one-wound, small and medium restriction. 4/4 stats make more sense as well. So really, I like none of those listed the best, but combining them would be neat.

I don't like removing Bonding since all the other Wyrms have bonding. I am not a fan of the uncommon hero either, also because it differentiates it from the other little dragons too much.

Good idea for a thread, Lefton4ya. Shame availability is too low on these guys, lets hope for a reprint.
I agree with Arch-vile, mostly.

Super Bogue's Copper Wyrmling is about how I would want it. Compare its Fire Line to the White Wyrmling's Ice Shards. White can only attack twice at a range of 5; Copper has potential to attack four figures at range 4, but a reasonable opponent won't let that happen. These Wyrmlings' breaths are very similar in power, but the White has the advantage of an extra defense die. Not sure how you could fix that slight difference.

My preference for the Green Wyrmling would be even stats, just like Charos, at 4/4. I am fine with Fledgling Counter Strike or normal Counter Strike. Because of his lack of a special, I think he should only cost 30 points. My .

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  #5  
Old June 13th, 2012, 11:13 AM
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Re: Green & Copper Wyrmlings - Vote & Collaborate

For the Green Wyrmling, I do like 4/4 and fledgling counterstrike with KC's wording of max of one wound and can go either way on Arch-ville's idea of also combining chief's wording so it only affects small and medium figures. However what the SoV team was worried about was 2 things: Being valient, you can do this army with 35 point GWs: 4th mass * 5 + GW * 4 = 490 points, 24 spaces. They were worried that GW would be the ultimate glyph grabbers and screen with this army. They were also worried against melee armies shuch as knights, dwarves, orcs, or even non-bonding ones such as warforged, WoA, or others, that if you had a dozen or so GWs, it would be nie invincible. Removing bonding (but still allowing reverse bonding) gets rid of both situations because with the 4th mass, you are only taking one turn a marker, or you need a mixed wrymling army as to not be overpowered against melee. However in my limited experience playtesting, green wrymlings with bonding, even with 4th mass and/or against melee, are really not that powerful, and removing bonding does seem weird, so I dunno. Even though it has no SA, it is worth 35 points, though.

None of the cards above are Uncommon, but I know that idea was suggested, and I can maybe see it for a new "large _____ wyrmling" if it had multiple life and no bonding, but am not a huge fan of the idea. The other issue is the DDM sculpt for the bronze wrymling is really small, about 1/2 the size of black or white ones. I guess Charos has small eggs but their kids just grow up big.

For Copper Wrmling, I kinda like Krysto's based off Orthkurik, but Super Bogue's and Betawolf's (no card yet) both seem decent mini-Mimrings.

I also hope they rerelease minis to increase availability. If anyone sees another suitable mini, let everyone know.

Last edited by lefton4ya; June 13th, 2012 at 11:27 AM.
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Old June 13th, 2012, 11:18 AM
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Re: Green & Copper Wyrmlings - Vote & Collaborate

Would we want to take the greenie down to 3/3, and just have normal counterstrike? I would be fine with 4/4 and KC's though too.

I am leaning more towards a mini-mimring for the copper. I think a range of 4, attack of 3 would be good, maybe 35 points, or range of 4-5, attack of 2 @30. One idea I had was to make him a beast, like Mimsy, but Wyrmling would kind of fit better.


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Old June 13th, 2012, 11:19 AM
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Re: Green & Copper Wyrmlings - Vote & Collaborate

I like the idea of a 1-wound counterstrike that's dependent on excess shields AND a d20 roll. That way you could get the right number for the d20 and still keep bonding.

EDIT: I like Super_bogue and betawolf's mini-Mimrings best of the Copper Wyrmlings.

Of the Green Wyrmlings listed here, I think I like Super_bogue's the best, although I think Fledgling Counterstrike is worded wrong on almost all of the Green Wyrmlings.

Your custom probably has too much Defense.

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Old June 13th, 2012, 12:29 PM
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Re: Green & Copper Wyrmlings - Vote & Collaborate

Quote:
Originally Posted by capsocrates View Post
I like the idea of a 1-wound counterstrike that's dependent on excess shields AND a d20 roll. That way you could get the right number for the d20 and still keep bonding.

EDIT: I like Super_bogue and betawolf's mini-Mimrings best of the Copper Wyrmlings.

Of the Green Wyrmlings listed here, I think I like Super_bogue's the best, although I think Fledgling Counterstrike is worded wrong on almost all of the Green Wyrmlings.
Thanks for the kinds words about my Wyrmlings. I am curious though on how you would word Fledgling Counterstrike?
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Old June 13th, 2012, 12:38 PM
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Re: Green & Copper Wyrmlings - Vote & Collaborate

Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Bogue View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by capsocrates View Post
I like the idea of a 1-wound counterstrike that's dependent on excess shields AND a d20 roll. That way you could get the right number for the d20 and still keep bonding.

EDIT: I like Super_bogue and betawolf's mini-Mimrings best of the Copper Wyrmlings.

Of the Green Wyrmlings listed here, I think I like Super_bogue's the best, although I think Fledgling Counterstrike is worded wrong on almost all of the Green Wyrmlings.
Thanks for the kinds words about my Wyrmlings. I am curious though on how you would word Fledgling Counterstrike?
Something more like this:
"When rolling defense dice against a normal attack from an adjacent figure, if at least two excess shields are rolled, the attacking figure receives one unblockable hit."

The important part to me is: "if at least two excess shields are rolled."

Although I just looked up Charos and realized that he's worded differently than I thought, so maybe you're right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charos' Counterstrike
When rolling defense dice against a normal attack from an adjacent attacking figure, all excess shields count as unblockable hits on the attacking figure.

Your custom probably has too much Defense.

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Old June 14th, 2012, 06:56 PM
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Re: Green & Copper Wyrmlings - Vote & Collaborate

Thanks for the Compliment Caps' and Lefton' .
I personally like the idea of making "unofficial" official wyrmlings (and large dragons) by collaboration of ideas.
I like KC's green the best but agree with arch-vile on 1 wound small and medium restrictions 4-4 stats.
I like super_bogue's copper the best, his being similar to mine but more reasonably priced.
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Old June 14th, 2012, 07:40 PM
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Re: Green & Copper Wyrmlings - Vote & Collaborate

Quote:
Originally Posted by lefton4ya View Post
However what the SoV team was worried about was 2 things: Being valient, you can do this army with 35 point GWs: 4th mass * 5 + GW * 4 = 490 points, 24 spaces. They were worried that GW would be the ultimate glyph grabbers and screen with this army. They were also worried against melee armies shuch as knights, dwarves, orcs, or even non-bonding ones such as warforged, WoA, or others, that if you had a dozen or so GWs, it would be nie invincible. Removing bonding (but still allowing reverse bonding) gets rid of both situations because with the 4th mass, you are only taking one turn a marker, or you need a mixed wrymling army as to not be overpowered against melee. However in my limited experience playtesting, green wrymlings with bonding, even with 4th mass and/or against melee, are really not that powerful, and removing bonding does seem weird, so I dunno.
I agree that counterstrike isn't that powerful...

From Sisyphus' Probability Tables, Counter Strike Wound Chance with 3-5 defense and 1-8 attack:

..... 1.......2.......3.......4.......5......6......7......8
3 0.481 0.315 0.199 0.123 0.074 0.044 0.026 0.015
4 0.605 0.432 0.296 0.197 0.127 0.081 0.050 0.031
5 0.704 0.539 0.395 0.279 0.192 0.128 0.084 0.054

It isn't bad, even at 4 defense. Knights' 3 attack? Only 30% chance of counterstrike. That means if all 4 knights attack Green Wyrmlings only 1 on average will be CS'd. They are too expensive to be effective screens and aren't as good of glyph grabbers as rats. When you look at 5 defense with height, they are more dangerous with a 40% CS rate against 3 attack dice. But if they enemy has height for 4v4, they only have a 20% chance. And overall, they only have two activations compared to 3 or 4 plus bonding of most melee squads.

For the cost, maybe 35 points is alright, but these guys will be hurting against range. If this thread is going to be a big project, I think it should focus on one wyrmling at a time; Green or Copper.

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Old June 14th, 2012, 08:02 PM
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Re: Green & Copper Wyrmlings - Vote & Collaborate

The SoV Green Wyrmling was 3 attack and 5 defense right? Changing that to 4/4 seems like a good start to lessen survivability. I never see counter strike work that often either, but I do think it is pretty important the Greenies don't help the 4th Mass too much.
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