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Old August 9th, 2009, 09:45 PM
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Captain_Gerbil Captain_Gerbil is offline
 
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LOS rule; discussion

DISCLAIMER
As a preface, I would appreciate serious feedback on line of sight, and possible ways to fix/adjust/make sense. I am basing my evaluations on the Swarm of the Marro Master Set 2 Rule Book. I sincerely hope it's not just me who has problems or dislikes problems that arise pertaining to line of sight in game. If so, then I will continue playing it my way

In Preview, the hexes I tried to make look like crap

Additionally, I would like to apologize in advance for not having actual photos to better show actual hexes and actual figures and draw on in paint or photoshop. At the time being I do not have access to a camera as I am preparing to ship oversees.
*****************************************************


Since I started playing Heroscape, I have continuously felt that the line of sight rule as it is was overly excessive, if not ridiculous and silly.

The current ruling states that a figure is in line of sight if it can be seen from the figure attacking it, which typically applies to some sort of range attack or maybe to a special ability.
To do this, a player is supposed to get down and look through the figure's focus point (the green dot) and determine whether they can see the target's red area (part where the damage counts).
As ridiculous, this allows for units to see a target's pony tail, finger, boot, or ear, and still attack for full combat dice allotted and score a killing blow... Is it possible to shoot a bow and hit someone's toenail (exaggerated) and then kill them? LOLZ

The way I have modified the game, and this has reduced headache, was to establish a line of sight variant rule, that did not require players to pull out a piece of string to determine line of sight, as well as waste gaming time quabbling over legal hits and etc.

This is a basic "hex" I will use for demonstration, albeit it looks like crap, and it is:
_
/ \
\_/

Example 1
Try to bear with me, thanks.

The line of sight ruling I have been using is that a figure is able to "see" another figure if the hexes towards the target aren't filled with obstacles that are equal to or greater than the attacking figure's height, and that the target is not behind an obstacle greater than its height.

An example here is a figure with a height of 5 shooting at a figure with a height of 3 hiding behind a figure that is height 3 or higher, or an obstacle (such as terrain) that is height 3 or higher.
In this case, the attacking figure can't shoot at the target behind the obstacle simply because his "point of view" or line of sight sees the target's helmet or thumb.

In this example, we have a normal line of sight scenario with no obstacles in the way, there are two hexes between the attacker and the target and nothing obscures the path.
Let A = attacker, D = defender, O = obstacle
_ _ _
_/ \_/ \_/ \
/ \A/\_/ \_/
\_/ \_/ \O/ \
/ \_/ \_/ \_/
\_/
\_/ \D/ \
Example 2

In the next example, I look at a figure shooting at another figure that is on the edge of or is in an obstacle. From here we determine line of sight from where the actual base of the attacker's rests (what level and hex), all the way to the hex where the defending/possible target's base rests.
Let A = attacker, D = defender, O = obstacle
_ _ _
_/ \_/ \_/ \
/ \A/\_/ \_/
\_/ \_/ \O/ \
/ \_/ \_/ \D/
\_/
\_/ \_/ \
Example 3

While in most cases the Attacker is able to hit the Defender, in some cases they cannot. This is due to the rule where "players, after moving a figure, may adjust the piece in its allotted hexes (in regards to double space figures)". This is done to usually make a piece fit in its space, but also, according to the line of sight rules, allows players to hide a figure's arm, or other nonsense from being targeted.

With this rule, if it is to be seriously allowed, does not seem to hold accountable figure's whose "limbs" are overly flexible and might be either squeezed by a player, or are naturally "crooked" as a result of packaging or storage, due to the figure material's malleability.

In the modified rules I am playing with, an attacker (or in regard for clear sight) is able to hit the target in the Example 3, regardless of whether the unit's finger is barely showing or his entire head/limbs is/are poking out. This is because the hexes before the target will be key.
Angling towards the attacker, the target has one EMPTY space and one OCCUPIED space, the occupied space being occupied by either another unit, a tree, etc.
To make it easier to understand, look at what the line of sight of the attacker bisects. We see that in Example 3, from the attacker to the target's hex, there is only 1 item that bisects this new "line of sight" Therefore it is a hit.

Before I make this even more complicated, Bisect, in this sense means "if one draws a straight line to a hex, there is neither an obstacle on the left and the right of this line". Having an obstacle/figure/etc on either side of this line is okay. An example would be to draw an imaginary line to the target and have (3) obstacles on the right side of the line. If there is even a SINGLE obstacle/figure/etc on the left side of this line, the target is blocked; or rather the attacker DOES NOT have line of sight.

Here are a few more examples to maybe clarify this point.

Let A = attacker, D = defender, O = obstacle
_ _ _
_ / \_/ \_/ \
/ \A/\_/ \_/
\_/ \_/ \O/ \
/ \_/ \O/ \D/
\_/
\_/ \_/ \
Example 4

In Example 4 above, we see that there are (2) obstacles in the way of the defender/target, therefore this would be an illegal attack.
However, this is modified if, for example, either of the obstacles were less than the defender's height; in that case it would be a legal line of sight check/hit/shot.

This next example will show a different bisection of the hexes.
Let A = attacker, D = defender, O = obstacle
_ _ _
_/ \_/ \_/ \
/ \_/\O/ \_/
\A/ \_/ \D/ \
/ \O/ \_/ \_/
\_/
\_/ \_/ \
Example 5

In example 5, we see that drawing a straight line from A's hex to D's hex will have an obstacle on both the right side and the left side of the line. Therefore the attacker does not have line of sight of the target.

Let A = attacker, D = defender, O = obstacle
_ _ _
_/ \_/ \_/ \
/ \O/\O/ \_/
\A/ \_/ \D/ \
/ \_/ \_/ \_/
\_/
\_/ \_/ \
Example 6

In example 6, we see that drawing a straight line from A's hex to D's hex will have an obstacle on just one side of the line. Therefore the attacker does have line of sight of the target.


If you read all of this, thanks a ton. If you understand it, even better.
If you have any questions, concerns, or discrepancies with this, please bring it up here. I would definitely like to know whether you think this line of sight fix I am suggesting helps the game or hurts it.

Again, I feel very strongly that it makes the game more smooth and takes a lot of headache out of the game as well. I wonder if something like this might be worthwhile to ask about for future rule augmentation down the road?

Thanks again,

Captain

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  #2  
Old August 9th, 2009, 09:49 PM
Bonecrusher Bonecrusher is offline
 
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Re: LOS rule; discussion

Ummm there are no squabbles about LOS in my house. Give the benefit of the doubt to the attacker. Makes things go faster. I would be utterly opposed to a rule augmentation or change. Just throwing that out there.

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  #3  
Old August 9th, 2009, 09:54 PM
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Eirikr Eirikr is offline
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Re: LOS rule; discussion

Wow! Ya. That's a lot simpler.

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Old August 9th, 2009, 10:00 PM
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Re: LOS rule; discussion

When I was writing it, I was thinking of the experience I had when I played Heroscape at a shop near where I went to college at. At home, people can take care of rules pretty civilly.

I'm looking at it when you and your gaming buddies have new people play with you, maybe a friend's friend joins, or you see a bunch of other people at a local hobby store playing and you want to join up and those rules on line of sight annoy you, so eventually you leave.

why not eliminate this frustration?

Also, I haven't participated in a realtournament yet, but I could see people getting annoyed over the course of a game over these minute details, such as Blasting a unit because you can see its fingers.
These kind of goofy rules often are what turn me off from even considering the tournament scene.

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Old August 9th, 2009, 10:03 PM
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Re: LOS rule; discussion

I say that if you have any issues and need to resolve them with whatever elaborate means necessary for your gaming group, then go for it. Most folks don't really need those measures, but more power to you if they help.

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Old August 9th, 2009, 10:16 PM
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Re: LOS rule; discussion

I've never had a problem with LOS with new or experienced players.
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Old August 9th, 2009, 10:21 PM
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Re: LOS rule; discussion

ah word Taeble. Y
I felt like sharing this because I originally played the game with the Line of Sight Rules it had, and they could get hairy.
Even with friends, I've seen people argue about line of sight (usually around when its the last chance before the target is dead) because it can be a problem, even when it happens once in awhile.
This method I prescribed seems to eliminate a lot of hassle, and everyone knows who can and can't be hit in one glance. Seemed to save time as said earlier.

As asked previously, does anyone see anything they would change about this LoS method if they were to play it?


EDIT

I wish i had some pictures to help, Imagine the obstacles being like a tree or VERY tall hexes, like 6 high, with a 3 size figure behind it.

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Old August 9th, 2009, 10:22 PM
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Re: LOS rule; discussion

If you are really quibbling over LOS then maybe you need to find a new game.

You will find that at some point you dont even get down to check the way it says in the book....alot of times someone i am playing against will say "Hmmm is he in site?" and unless my fig is standing behind the large tree or the ruins then I say "Yeah..go for it". (Sherman actually questioned it after I said it to him at Islandscape)
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Old August 9th, 2009, 10:24 PM
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Re: LOS rule; discussion

Look at it this way....someone is behind a tree and their hand is sticking out. The shot to the hand wouldnt kill them but the shooter now knows where the person is and fires a round through the tree.
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Old August 9th, 2009, 10:25 PM
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Re: LOS rule; discussion

If I'm the defender, I always just ask, "Can you see the hitzone?" If my opponent says "Yes", I say "Okay, then you can hit it."
If I'm the attacker and I can see the hitzone on the defender I say "I can see the hitzone." If the defender says, "I don't think you can", I say, "Check for yourself." If he says, "I can't see it" I say, "Okay, then I guess I can't hit it."
I know it seems complicated but in practice it is quite easy and I've never had this system fail or lead to a conflict once. Feel free to try it out.

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Old August 9th, 2009, 10:26 PM
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Re: LOS rule; discussion

I usually only take the shot if the figure is clearly in view. Arguing over a little sliver isn't worth it, IMO.
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Old August 9th, 2009, 10:30 PM
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Captain_Gerbil Captain_Gerbil is offline
 
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Re: LOS rule; discussion

o yea, obvious things like that where a figure is in the open.

but say you have a dwarf standing to the side of mimring and the dwarf is being targeted, but someone says, "oh hey, mimrings mouth is in the way" or " oh man the guy's shield makes him unable to be seen because he is behind the tree and the only thing the attacker can see is his ax. The reason you cna see the guys ax only is due to how the guy is finagled onto the hex.

Eliminate the finagling, if your los isn't bisected on both sides, its a clean shot

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