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  #85  
Old September 25th, 2019, 01:24 PM
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Re: SOV/C3V Feedback Thread

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But perception matters as much as reality. The project looks dead, it feels dead, and the people who can't see the internal gears only have words.
If you look in the right places, you see Public Playtesting announcements & Tournaments. You also see when we accept a new sculpt, and make it known to the public we are working on a new design.

If anyone wants to get involved, public playtesting is the best route. Quality of tests and volume won't go unnoticed when it comes time to replace someone in the group. It is the first place we look.

Kevindola was brought on due to his playtesting voracity, as was the case for Sir Heroscape(Just recently).

Have you tried Hexscape? 3D Heroscape Multiplayer Battle program!

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  #86  
Old September 25th, 2019, 01:25 PM
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Re: SOV/C3V Feedback Thread

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Originally Posted by Lazy Orang View Post
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Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper View Post
As for announced minis "stalling," it's been a problem in the past. I am aware that there are some long-announced minis that have not been released yet, and that's distressing. To our fans, of course, but also to us.

But (off the top of my head) I don't think we have any announced mini currently in the Sanctum that is, as of this moment, actually stalled. Our internal gears are functioning right now more cleanly than I ever remember them turning before.

I am aware that, from the outside, it may look like we have stalling units and/or people on the voting rolls who no longer belong there. To the best of my knowledge, neither of those is actually true, to the extent that my opinion as an insider might have value. I would, however, say that both have been true at times in the past, and I certainly acknowledge that both present serious challenges to the continued vitality of the project.

But we've somehow kept the train moving, this whole time, and I feel like we're in a pretty good place right now. Others are free to disagree, of course. Just my 2c.
But perception matters as much as reality. The project looks dead, it feels dead, and the people who can't see the internal gears only have words.
Oh, sure. This is absolutely true. I wasn't aware that we looked dead, though. I mean, I *thought* we do stuff with community engagement, and occasional releases.

But you've objected that it tends to be insular, and that's a fair objection. Just as I don't spend much time poking around the non-VC customs threads, a person who isn't often poking at our edges would not see much activity from the outside.

I certainly agree with you in principle, though. That looking like a dead project is not good for the image of the project. We are not simply nailed to the perch, of course, but you aren't on the inside.

It is my goal that our productivity rate will increase, and there's no reason why it shouldn't.

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  #87  
Old September 25th, 2019, 01:28 PM
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Re: SOV/C3V Feedback Thread

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Originally Posted by IAmBatman View Post
Guess it depends on your definition of "dead." C3V has a wave release on the front page of the site with more comments on it than C3G's last front page release.
Not a fair comparison - C3G's a comparatively fringe product, being a continuation of a fringe aspect of a dead game - of course it's less popular - but it's actual activity is far greater. We have a release every month now - C3V is lucky to churn out, what, 6 units a year? Interest =/= activity. C3V could be far more active than C3G with the greater amount of interest poured in, but it achieves far less.


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  #88  
Old September 25th, 2019, 01:29 PM
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Re: SOV/C3V Feedback Thread

Wow this thread is moving fast!

Perhaps to combat the appearance of a dead project, we should update the homepage more often. @superfrog just made a great announcement about PAM that I'm sure many people missed. It's a perfect example of something that should be placed on the homepage.
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  #89  
Old September 25th, 2019, 01:29 PM
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Re: SOV/C3V Feedback Thread

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Originally Posted by Scytale View Post

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I hear this and agree that there are some figures announced to be used from years ago that are still in the process. Any thoughts on how to fix these issues?
I was surprised when I first entered the Inner Sanctum and saw how it was built. The process is designer-focused, not output-focused. The whole concept is for people to find miniatures, come up with a design, and rework that design as they move it through the process. One side effect of that is that if a designer loses interest in a design, or leaves the project, that design will stall. That can and has happened to figures that were announced. When a design starts the process, there is no plan for when it will be released or what other units it will be "packaged" with. We build Waves once enough stuff has gotten far enough through the process and package together what we have. There are no deadlines or any checks and balances to ensure that units keep moving along once announced.
This right here may be what needs to be addressed. It sounds like we need a project manager.

It's interesting to see, Scytale, that you prefer to participate in this for the skills. I think that is very smart of you. I would imagine others felt the same so perhaps the solution for some of the woes is to simply start running it more like a business and once a figure is announced to the public its "on the clock" and given sole focus by the team to get it launched. If the mini isn't announced, then folks can take as much time as they need to "get it right."

This might be the corporate America in me speaking, but I find that emails and forum posts too slow and not conducive to fast production. Perhaps setting up a weekly conference call would be better so you guys can quickly talk through the design? A few words spoken saves minutes from typing lol.

@Kinseth thank you for your response. What do you think about my above suggestion? Figures not announced to the public can take all the time needed to get it right and once the figured is announced its just about complete?
At C3G it generally takes no more than a month or two (maybe three) between a design thread being posted and it being finalised for release. There are exceptions (we've had some lasting several years if an LD goes AWOL), but those are exceptionally rare. Loads of the units we've been releasing recently (though certainly not all of them) weren't in production when the year started. It doesn't need to to take this long. It feels as though the standard time frame for a C3V design is about equal to the ones that become in-jokes in C3G for how bloody long they took, and those designs only did so because of the amount of time there was no one working on them. That's... kind of ludicrous.


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Originally Posted by IAmBatman View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazy Orang View Post
Personal designers neither ask for outside testing nor do they singlehandedly dominate the landscape. It's not really comparable, in any way. There may be little give, but there's virtually zero take.
Your entire complaint is based on their wanting to take more and not being able to. There's very little give from personal customs and if there's very little take it's not because personal customs don't want to take, it's because people aren't interested. Personal customs, by their nature, are a self-centered pursuit, so it shouldn't be shocking when you don't always inspire participation from others.
Commenting and a degree of recognition =/= actual concerted effort playtesting. All I'm saying is that it feels as though designs posted without a SoV nomination in consideration are shouting into the void these days, whereas if you mention its intention to go to the big leagues and actually 'do something important', only then do people care. Of course that's disparaging, and it wasn't the case before SoV planted its flag and came to dominate the customs landscape.


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  #90  
Old September 25th, 2019, 01:31 PM
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Re: SOV/C3V Feedback Thread

Do you think we could have a status report for the public, that is vague enough? Kind of like a % meter.

X Units are currently in Design
X Units are currently in Editing
X Units are currently under review
X Units are currently in Playtesting
X Units are currently in Public Playtesting
X Units are in Art, prepping to be released?

Have you tried Hexscape? 3D Heroscape Multiplayer Battle program!

Looking for a C3V/SOV miniature? Try one of these sites.
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  #91  
Old September 25th, 2019, 01:32 PM
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Re: SOV/C3V Feedback Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kinseth View Post
Do you think we could have a status report for the public, that is vague enough? Kind of like a % meter.

X Units are currently in Design
X Units are currently in Editing
X Units are currently under review
X Units are currently in Playtesting
X Units are currently in Public Playtesting
X Units are in Art, prepping to be released?
Absolutely, along with important announcements like the PAM announcement. I think weekly updates will be great. Perhaps every Friday or so?
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  #92  
Old September 25th, 2019, 01:33 PM
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Re: SOV/C3V Feedback Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazy Orang View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper View Post
As for announced minis "stalling," it's been a problem in the past. I am aware that there are some long-announced minis that have not been released yet, and that's distressing. To our fans, of course, but also to us.

But (off the top of my head) I don't think we have any announced mini currently in the Sanctum that is, as of this moment, actually stalled. Our internal gears are functioning right now more cleanly than I ever remember them turning before.

I am aware that, from the outside, it may look like we have stalling units and/or people on the voting rolls who no longer belong there. To the best of my knowledge, neither of those is actually true, to the extent that my opinion as an insider might have value. I would, however, say that both have been true at times in the past, and I certainly acknowledge that both present serious challenges to the continued vitality of the project.

But we've somehow kept the train moving, this whole time, and I feel like we're in a pretty good place right now. Others are free to disagree, of course. Just my 2c.
But perception matters as much as reality. The project looks dead, it feels dead, and the people who can't see the internal gears only have words.
Oh, sure. This is absolutely true. I wasn't aware that we looked dead, though. I mean, I *thought* we do stuff with community engagement, and occasional releases.

But you've objected that it tends to be insular, and that's a fair objection. Just as I don't spend much time poking around the non-VC customs threads, a person who isn't often poking at our edges would not see much activity from the outside.

I certainly agree with you in principle, though. That looking like a dead project is not good for the image of the project. We are not simply nailed to the perch, of course, but you aren't on the inside.

It is my goal that our productivity rate will increase, and there's no reason why it shouldn't.
Okay, 'dead' was honestly hyperbole - dead is the likes of HoME, Historyscape and Mythscape (if you don't know what I'm referring to... that kind of proves my point). But it certainly seems sluggish and inactive from the outside, which isn't as bad, but it's certainly not good.


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  #93  
Old September 25th, 2019, 01:38 PM
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Re: SOV/C3V Feedback Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazy Orang View Post
Commenting and a degree of recognition =/= actual concerted effort playtesting. All I'm saying is that it feels as though designs posted without a SoV nomination in consideration are shouting into the void these days, whereas if you mention its intention to go to the big leagues and actually 'do something important', only then do people care. Of course that's disparaging, and it wasn't the case before SoV planted its flag and came to dominate the customs landscape.
Because it's the difference between saying "this is just my own vision and my own thing" and saying "this is something I want the community to use and I want to have meet community-wide standards."

I can go into your personal customs thread and tell you how I'd like to see you design things, but why? It's your personal custom threads. You're designing them with your vision, not mine.

But when you decide you want to create something that's for the whole community and is consistent with a certain standard I'm already familiar with and use and that you want the help and efforts of others to get there, then I have a clear end goal that gives meanings to my efforts.

C3G can be played with official Heroscape, but it's not recommended.


DISCLAIMER: C3G claims no ownership of the characters or artwork used for C3G customs. All rights for the characters belong to their respective publishers/creators. C3G cards are not intended for sale, and C3G does not authorize any party to profit from C3G cards.

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  #94  
Old September 25th, 2019, 01:40 PM
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Re: SOV/C3V Feedback Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by IAmBatman View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazy Orang View Post
Commenting and a degree of recognition =/= actual concerted effort playtesting. All I'm saying is that it feels as though designs posted without a SoV nomination in consideration are shouting into the void these days, whereas if you mention its intention to go to the big leagues and actually 'do something important', only then do people care. Of course that's disparaging, and it wasn't the case before SoV planted its flag and came to dominate the customs landscape.
Because it's the difference between saying "this is just my own vision and my own thing" and saying "this is something I want the community to use and I want to have meet community-wide standards."

I can go into your personal customs thread and tell you how I'd like to see you design things, but why? It's your personal custom threads. You're designing them with your vision, not mine.

But when you decide you want to create something that's for the whole community and is consistent with a certain standard I'm already familiar with and use and that you want the help and efforts of others to get there, then I have a clear end goal that gives meanings to my efforts.
This never stopped friendly comments on designs threads before SoV, or on the threads of people who already had a following (i.e. Scytale).


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  #95  
Old September 25th, 2019, 01:41 PM
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Re: SOV/C3V Feedback Thread

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Originally Posted by Lazy Orang View Post
Okay, 'dead' was honestly hyperbole - dead is the likes of HoME, Historyscape and Mythscape (if you don't know what I'm referring to... that kind of proves my point). But it certainly seems sluggish and inactive from the outside, which isn't as bad, but it's certainly not good.
I didn't know what those were to begin with...

Suggestions for better PR and advertising?

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  #96  
Old September 25th, 2019, 01:43 PM
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Re: SOV/C3V Feedback Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazy Orang View Post
Not a fair comparison - C3G's a comparatively fringe product, being a continuation of a fringe aspect of a dead game - of course it's less popular - but it's actual activity is far greater. We have a release every month now - C3V is lucky to churn out, what, 6 units a year? Interest =/= activity. C3V could be far more active than C3G with the greater amount of interest poured in, but it achieves far less.
I wasn't aware that superheroes were on the fringe of cultural consciousness.

I'd say we're doing just fine, thank you. Not that any impression of "deadness" would affect my output or participation in the project one way or another.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazy Orang View Post
Okay, 'dead' was honestly hyperbole - dead is the likes of HoME, Historyscape and Mythscape (if you don't know what I'm referring to... that kind of proves my point). But it certainly seems sluggish and inactive from the outside, which isn't as bad, but it's certainly not good.
I have never known you to be hyperbolic, over the top, or at all careless with your word choices, LO.

C3G can be played with official Heroscape, but it's not recommended.


DISCLAIMER: C3G claims no ownership of the characters or artwork used for C3G customs. All rights for the characters belong to their respective publishers/creators. C3G cards are not intended for sale, and C3G does not authorize any party to profit from C3G cards.

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