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  #6493  
Old September 23rd, 2019, 08:07 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

I wouldn't have a problem with a pre-painted metal miniatures if it was the appropriate price & scale for heroscape.

Have you tried Hexscape? 3D Heroscape Multiplayer Battle program!

Looking for a C3V/SOV miniature? Try one of these sites.
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  #6494  
Old September 23rd, 2019, 09:19 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf_It View Post
I should have been clear about that. Sorry. They were meant to be a faction, since they come together as a set.

At this point, I'm just going to scrap the entire design. You will not be seeing it again. Too many aspects of the design are bothering people, and if the minis being metal minis is going to be a problem as well, the design doesn't really matter in the first place.
I don't think one of the judges has said that metal minis would be a problem. Most of the feedback I've seen on this design has been about power names, which should tell you that you're in a pretty good spot.

Of course, you don't have to submit it if you don't want to, but I wouldn't be too discouraged if I were you.

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  #6495  
Old September 24th, 2019, 12:09 AM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf_It View Post
I should have been clear about that. Sorry. They were meant to be a faction, since they come together as a set.

At this point, I'm just going to scrap the entire design. You will not be seeing it again. Too many aspects of the design are bothering people, and if the minis being metal minis is going to be a problem as well, the design doesn't really matter in the first place.
First of all, I hope you reconsider, @Leaf_It . I don't think anyone in VC was opposed to the mechanics of your design or the minis you selected. I am personally excited about both. I was even persuaded away from my initial impression that Tenacity would not be interesting; your post talking about it made it seem very interesting indeed!


Please reconsider. I think you are close with the power names. (Maybe you are already posting in the Pre-SOV Workshop and I haven't checked back in yet)


--


In other news, wow. I knew that many customs designers had set their sights on Soldiers of Valhalla to the exclusion of all else. I've always thought that was disappointing. What I did not know was that others in the community felt negative about VC because of that. If there is something I can do to ameliorate those negative feelings, I would like to know.



I was going to write something about how I'm sad that the "good old days" of people creating lots of customs that *aren't* a good fit for the canon have gone. But then I thought about it some more. While we have some creators, like Scytale, that create a lot of content that is ready to stride right into the canon, we have quite a few that have created a lot of content that is not so constrained. Stroll through the works of @Lazy Orang , @Soundwarp SG-1 , @TheSparkleInYourWater , or @wriggz , just to name a few. Our community is much smaller than it used to be, so it makes sense that the total output would be smaller. VC is now a part of the community so it does make sense that some part of the community would direct themselves that way.


With that said, I *would* like to see some more submissions of *other people's* existing customs rather than self-nominations.

Your custom probably has too much Defense.

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  #6496  
Old September 24th, 2019, 01:44 AM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

wow. I leave for work, and everything explodes. I didn't mean to start all this drama. I think some of the conversation has been at least insightful, but I'm sorry to anyone who's been angered by these proceeding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper View Post
Well, that's up to you.

As I said months ago, my own personal feeling is that suitable metal minis, provided the quality and price were acceptable, would be ok. And you seem to have found such a thing. For myself - and my vote doesn't matter now, but this is the same thing I said months ago - the minis themselves (because the quality and price are right) are not a problem. I'm not in the SoV, and I don't know whether it would be a problem for other people.

I glanced at the discussion in the pre-SoV thread, and it looked like a good direction. I wouldn't assume you'll get a no just because they're metal. I mean, there would be a discussion, but I don't know how it would end.
I had a bad taste in my mouth this morning, and the comments about the figures being metal just added onto a pile of other stress. I believe I overreacted. I don't really want to scrap the design.
Quote:
Originally Posted by superfrog View Post
I don't think one of the judges has said that metal minis would be a problem. Most of the feedback I've seen on this design has been about power names, which should tell you that you're in a pretty good spot.

Of course, you don't have to submit it if you don't want to, but I wouldn't be too discouraged if I were you.
You're right. My outlook on the situation was more negative than it should have been. I felt like giving up much sooner than I should have.
Quote:
Originally Posted by capsocrates View Post
First of all, I hope you reconsider, @Leaf_It . I don't think anyone in VC was opposed to the mechanics of your design or the minis you selected. I am personally excited about both. I was even persuaded away from my initial impression that Tenacity would not be interesting; your post talking about it made it seem very interesting indeed!

Please reconsider. I think you are close with the power names. (Maybe you are already posting in the Pre-SOV Workshop and I haven't checked back in yet)
Thank you for the encouragement. Hopefully this isn't taken the wrong way, but I consider you one of the harder (if not the hardest) to please judges, so hearing that you are excited about a design I'm working to submit means quite a lot to me.
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  #6497  
Old September 24th, 2019, 01:53 AM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Hear Hear! That's the spirit Leaf_it! It wouldn't be as fun if it weren't challenging along the way! As an active and fellow designer I'm with you in that I will keep on keepin' on. Everyone is just blowin' wind when it comes to what could or should be for this project. Truth is, just enjoy what is. For me, that's designing and playing the game I love. SoV is an outlet for designers and their designs (as long as they are prepared to design them to a certain standard), and I have embraced that completely. I find it a worthy challenge and very enjoyable to reach the bar set by SoV. The only reason I got back into this game after a few years of Hiatus was because of custom creation and the excitement it was to work with something and perfect it and play with it.

We've evolved and this is where we are. I'd rather embrace where we are than wish we were back where we were or wonder about where we'll be. Right now, custom creation has never been so active, and that's a wonderful thing...shame on those who would look at it otherwise.
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  #6498  
Old September 24th, 2019, 02:05 AM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

We interrupt this discussion to bring you a quick review that I thought I posted a while ago. Oops.

Soontir Van by @Arch-vile

The Mariedians just got Rendar Fy through the SoV process, does Soontir Van have what it takes to join the resistance too?

Balance

Me-Burq-Sa makes for a decent comparison here. Also at 50 points, Van and Burqy have the same life, range, attack, and defense. Soontir Van has a defensive D20 power to ignore wounds while Burqy has an offensive D20 power to ignore defense. The main difference is that Van gives extra move to adjacent Mariedians (all ranged figures except Jarek Guy, mostly) while Me-Burq-Sa has 3 extra move and can be bonded with by two strong (and one not-so-strong) melee squads. That difference makes a straight comparison difficult, but as Me-Burq-Sa is arguably the best 50 point hero, it suggests a strong power level for Soontir.

Another comparison is Arkmer, another good 50 point hero. Again, the two have the same life, but Arkmer has one less range and one more attack than Van. Arkmer also has a defensive D20 power useful against melee figures, and he gets (instead of gives) a bonus from adjacent Elf figures. Again, a straight comparison is difficult due to Van having more of a cheerleader role, but as far as power level goes he seems comparable.

Van compares closely stats-and-powers-wise with two of the best 50 point heroes in the game, but doesnít obviously overshadow them. His cheerleader ability is hard to judge on paper, so weíll see in Playability the actual effect of his presence in a game.

Theme

Soontir Vanís theme exists. It doesnít excite me the most, but it is there and is likely my own tastes. Heís a leader of the Mariedians, fighting against the Soulborgs. He has exosuit armor similar to Jarek Guy, putting him as a high-level fighter which matches his stats, and he is able to direct nearby Mariedians to sprint to certain areas, increasing their speed. The left-side stats work; Leader as the Class fits and Resolute as the Personality works as well as it should.

Creativity

Exosuit hails from Jarek Guy and the armor worn by both miniatures, so it fits by default. Mariedian Move Enhancement is taken from Acolarhís Ullarís Amulet and repurposed for Mariedians, so thereís nothing really new under the sun on Vanís card (which isnít necessarily bad -- see Guilty McCreech or recent SoV inductee Kha). What is unique is the interaction between Vanís movement boost and the M-43 Guerilla Tactics, as while they move up and take shots they can maneuver more figures next to Van to get the movement boost, and can also move Van into a different position to boost figures to different areas. This cheerleader power alone working fluidly with Guerilla Tactics is easily the best part of the design. Itís simple synergy and not overdesigned, but really fits into the Mariedian playstyle and overall theme.

Playability

At 50 points, Van is pretty easy to slide into a Mariedian army. He can be used in conjunction with a few squads of M-43 for constant movement boosting, or can be drafted with a single Mariedian card (usually the B-11) as a smaller element of an army, able to provide the boost once and then come in as cleanup at the end of the game.

With the M-43, Soontir Van is able to see use throughout the game. He can boost a few M-43 out of the start zone and then be danced around with Guerilla Tactics to boost more. He can also be moved closer to the battle to give M-43 a boost onto height, getting reinforcements in quickly when your front gunners die. Either way, the strategy to use Van isnít as straightforward as one might think. Unlike other ranged squads that can get movement buffs (Mohicans with Venoc Warlord, for example), it takes careful positioning and planning to get the most out of Van. You need to know where you want your M-43 to end up, and plan that movement when youíre moving and attacking during their turn, as well as where youíre moving Van and reinforcement M-43. Negligent placement results in getting your forces too far into the fray where Van is no longer used for his movement boost, cutting his effectiveness. However, being able to carefully plan and execute a strategy that maximizes Vanís movement boost is both challenging and rewarding. Not overpowering, because the M-43 are aggressively average (and I love that about them), but definitely fun.

When boosting a single Mariedian unit like the B-11, Van is surprisingly useful for getting that unit out of the start zone. You can place them in the back and still bring them up to a strong fighting position once you start placing OMís on them. While not jaw dropping, it gives you that ease of start zone placement and a secondary filler/cleanup unit for only 50 points.

When it comes to cleanup, as expected Vanís stats let him perform well. He is fragile, though, and one or two hits are all it takes to take him down. Used with the M-43 heís usually in a decent position when time to use him come, but while Exosuit is nice, heís so fragile that if he misses once or twice heíll fall. Ranged figures that can kite are always good in the endgame, but Van doesnít outperform his fellow 50 pointers there and wonít win any games heís not supposed to.

Summary

Soontir Vanís combination of already-seen powers with Mariedian synergy, especially with Guerilla Tactics, is a great example of a simple design with lots of strong factional interplay. He isnít designed to make the M-43 A tier units, but instead gives them a unique way to play when heís drafted with them (without necessitating they draft him to be good).

I vote Yea to induct Soontir Van into the Soldiers of Valhalla.
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  #6499  
Old September 24th, 2019, 11:21 AM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf_It View Post
Thank you for the encouragement. Hopefully this isn't taken the wrong way, but I consider you one of the harder (if not the hardest) to please judges, so hearing that you are excited about a design I'm working to submit means quite a lot to me.
He is and the numbers back that up. Although by that logic, My opinion is worth less, since it seems I'm one the easier to please again based on the math.


As far as power creep the Thralls are really tough and I feel the outlaws might be a little high on the rankings. If you look at D units, it is fair to say there appears to be a few missteps there, which I doubt was intentional. Also High cost squads and terrain units will always fall to the bottom, and the VC really doesn't design many of them due to terrain being unavailable and uncertain and Squads being so rare in these late days.


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  #6500  
Old September 24th, 2019, 12:34 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperSamyon View Post
Hey folks, I just created a thread in this forum for feedback. Perhaps these discussions can be moved to that thread so that this thread isn't further derailed.
An excellent idea! I've moved posts to the SoV/C3V Feedback thread.

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  #6501  
Old September 25th, 2019, 01:13 AM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by wriggz View Post
He is and the numbers back that up. Although by that logic, My opinion is worth less, since it seems I'm one the easier to please again based on the math.


As far as power creep the Thralls are really tough and I feel the outlaws might be a little high on the rankings. If you look at D units, it is fair to say there appears to be a few missteps there, which I doubt was intentional. Also High cost squads and terrain units will always fall to the bottom, and the VC really doesn't design many of them due to terrain being unavailable and uncertain and Squads being so rare in these late days.
Every judge's vote is equally important, because it only takes 2 down votes to essentially guarantee the design won't pass "fanscape" review. A more accurate why to say it is that every Downvote is equally important, because just 1 downvote probably makes all the other judges feel that they need to explain why they want to vote for it despite the complaints of the downvote. Downvotes are the black mark, they spell death to any design's current iteration.
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  #6502  
Old September 25th, 2019, 01:15 AM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Over 17% of inducted SoV units received a downvote to induct.

Yes, most units that got one downvote also got a second, but it's not entirely a death sentence.

customs/maps/c3v/sov

how to:
make a card/post your maps

google sheets:
ohs link generator/attack outcomes

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  #6503  
Old September 25th, 2019, 01:52 AM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by superfrog View Post
Over 17% of inducted SoV units received a downvote to induct.

Yes, most units that got one downvote also got a second, but it's not entirely a death sentence.
Another way of saying that is "Only ~17% of downvoted designs get indicted into the SoV." That's about 1 in 6. The point is just that a downvote carries a lot of weight, and while an upvote does as well, the downvotes are the heaviest. Capsocates wields the downvotes the most, and that is why he is seen as the hardest judge to please.

Of course if a judge likes your design, they can argue their side of it, and that could turn a downvote, into an upvote, but that's not very common.
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  #6504  
Old September 25th, 2019, 01:59 AM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

You're 100% right. Downvotes are "worth more" than upvotes.

customs/maps/c3v/sov

how to:
make a card/post your maps

google sheets:
ohs link generator/attack outcomes

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