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  #25  
Old June 28th, 2019, 11:00 PM
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Re: [Pod 1] UNIT NAME (Ob Nixilis, Demon of Spite) - Design

Quote:
Originally Posted by NecroBlade View Post
Negative aura and negative spirit sounds cool! (Incidentally, the Lantern Geists could shake him off in their current state. ) Could "borrow" Gothok's power and make it Utgar:

AURA OF ANGUISH
All figures within 4 clear sight spaces of OB roll 1 less defense die. Figures that follow Utgar are not affected by Aura of Anguish/Misery/Sorrow.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Stupendous View Post
Also, I wonder how much rerolling multiple defense rolls per turn would slow down the game... I wouldn't be surprised if that is part of the reason Andask's Orb of Vengeance can only be used once per turn.
From what I recall it was more about power level on multi-attackers, but yeah slowing down the game too much would be no good.
Necroblade and all, whats your thinking about also making Aura of Anguish also affect Utgar? Also Anguish never lowers defense to 0?
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  #26  
Old June 29th, 2019, 08:39 AM
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Re: [Pod 1] UNIT NAME (Ob Nixilis, Demon of Spite) - Design

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fakeraistlin View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by NecroBlade View Post
Negative aura and negative spirit sounds cool! (Incidentally, the Lantern Geists could shake him off in their current state. ) Could "borrow" Gothok's power and make it Utgar:

AURA OF ANGUISH
All figures within 4 clear sight spaces of OB roll 1 less defense die. Figures that follow Utgar are not affected by Aura of Anguish/Misery/Sorrow.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Stupendous View Post
Also, I wonder how much rerolling multiple defense rolls per turn would slow down the game... I wouldn't be surprised if that is part of the reason Andask's Orb of Vengeance can only be used once per turn.
From what I recall it was more about power level on multi-attackers, but yeah slowing down the game too much would be no good.
Necroblade and all, whats your thinking about also making Aura of Anguish also affect Utgar? Also Anguish never lowers defense to 0?

Affecting Utgar is fine, imo. It does need to be thematicly implemented however. Not that Anguish would be thematic of course.

I'm not a fan of powers with a minimum restriction, it's always been an mathematical pain in the rear. Especially in competitive play when there are 8 people with different versions of the rules.

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  #27  
Old June 30th, 2019, 12:11 PM
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Re: [Pod 1] UNIT NAME (Ob Nixilis, Demon of Spite) - Design

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Originally Posted by Fakeraistlin View Post
Necroblade and all, whats your thinking about also making Aura of Anguish also affect Utgar?
I personally like the idea of mirroring Gothlok and not affecting units of his own general (does he really look like a guy who would have a "weaker" aura than Gothlok?), but this isn't my unit to design so if this group likes the idea, run with it in any direction you want.

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  #28  
Old July 1st, 2019, 02:42 PM
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Re: [Pod 1] UNIT NAME (Ob Nixilis, Demon of Spite) - Design

Quote:
Originally Posted by NecroBlade View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fakeraistlin View Post
Necroblade and all, whats your thinking about also making Aura of Anguish also affect Utgar?
I personally like the idea of mirroring Gothlok and not affecting units of his own general (does he really look like a guy who would have a "weaker" aura than Gothlok?), but this isn't my unit to design so if this group likes the idea, run with it in any direction you want.
I guess where I was going was, whats wrong with him NOT affecting is own units and only affecting enemies, faction doesn't factor in this. If it does why? Why can he despair his enemies regardless who he is drafted with?
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  #29  
Old July 1st, 2019, 03:21 PM
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Re: [Pod 1] UNIT NAME (Ob Nixilis, Demon of Spite) - Design

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fakeraistlin View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by NecroBlade View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fakeraistlin View Post
Necroblade and all, whats your thinking about also making Aura of Anguish also affect Utgar?
I personally like the idea of mirroring Gothlok and not affecting units of his own general (does he really look like a guy who would have a "weaker" aura than Gothlok?), but this isn't my unit to design so if this group likes the idea, run with it in any direction you want.
I guess where I was going was, whats wrong with him NOT affecting is own units and only affecting enemies, faction doesn't factor in this. If it does why? Why can he despair his enemies regardless who he is drafted with?
Thematically and mechanically: nothing.

Competitively, it hurts melee armies quite a bit more when he is sufficiently screened. While it can certainly be charged for, it is tricky territory because there will be some builds that are clearly better for this negative aura.

I don’t have an issue with it though, I’m just pointing out that its a tricky thing to balance.

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  #30  
Old July 1st, 2019, 03:44 PM
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Re: [Pod 1] UNIT NAME (Ob Nixilis, Demon of Spite) - Design

Are we tied to aura that lowers defense? How about lowering attack instead? Also instead of limiting to Utgar we can make it just affect opponents. This goes with the idea of making this unit the AotP Master Set's version of Raelin (lowering opponent's attack by 1 is almost the same as increasing your defense by 1.5, although statisticians might disagree), is something different than Gothlok, and also goes great thematically with negative spirit.

I'd also wouldn't mind flipping the negative spirit to reduce defense instead of attack as it gives the opponent a choice on whether to keep attack low or lower defense, although either spirit give a tough choice and affects the opponent's strategy of who to attack against and with first. I would think this unit would cost 120 or more even at 3 defense and 5 life.

Quote:
Life: 5
Move: 6
Range: 1
Attack: 4
Defense: 3

AURA OF ANGUISH
All opponent's figures within 4 clear sight spaces of [ON] roll 1 less attack die.

ANGUISH [ATTACK/DEFENSE] SPIRIT 1
When [ON] is destroyed, you may place this figure on any Unique Army Card. [ON]’s Anguish Spirit subtracts 1 from the [defense/normal attack] number on that card.

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  #31  
Old July 1st, 2019, 03:50 PM
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Re: [Pod 1] UNIT NAME (Ob Nixilis, Demon of Spite) - Design

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Originally Posted by lefton4ya View Post
Are we tied to aura that lowers defense? How about lowering attack instead?
Attack-lowering is a viable design space, but a dangerous one. Lowered defense leads to a faster, more violent game. Lowering attack leads to a slower, more tedious game, and can be downright miserable at times. It's something that should be used exceedingly sparingly.
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  #32  
Old July 1st, 2019, 03:57 PM
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Re: [Pod 1] UNIT NAME (Ob Nixilis, Demon of Spite) - Design

I feel like it's worth pointing out that Gothlok is a Flagbearer, and as such was expected to both use Valkyrie Dice and have some kind of broad synergy for Valkrill (in this case, an exclusion to his penalty aura). Ob Nixilus looks very much like an Utgar figure, but I don't think they need to mirror each other if they go down a similar direction.

Having played around with an "Attack -1" aura on Masha Shingai, I would encourage treading carefully if going down that route. I ended up deciding to not only limit it to Common Squad figures, but also letting it impact your own units and require a revealed Order Marker on his card to be active. An unrestrained, non-penalizing, and always active version of the power would be considerably more powerful.
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  #33  
Old July 1st, 2019, 04:08 PM
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Re: [Pod 1] UNIT NAME (Ob Nixilis, Demon of Spite) - Design

While I don’t mind reusing powers and concepts, I feel like reusing a version of Gothlok’s aura would cheapen both designs. This unit would certainly be different enough from Gothlok, but that aura is still the centerpiece of his design and it would feel a little odd to me to repeat it elsewhere. Plus, keeping the total number of stat lowering auras in the game to a minimum is probably a good idea simply to avoid unpleasant interactions with stacking them as much as possible.

I still prefer this guy’s aura to be anti-defensive in some way for largely the reasons Scytale mentioned—whenever possible I prefer to design units that encourage fast offensive games, not slow defensive ones. If we don’t want to do the defensive re-roll (although I don’t personally feel it would slow down the game all that much) we could consider other options. Here’s an idea that popped into my head:

Aura of Frailty
Whenever an opponent’s figure within 4 clear sigh spaces of (figure name) rolls defense dice, if they roll exactly the same amount of shields as the attacker rolled skulls, the defending figure receives a wound.

Demon Curse Spirit
When (figure name) is destroyed, you may place this figure on any Unique Army Card. (Figure name’s) curse spirit subtracts 2 from the defense value on that card.
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  #34  
Old July 2nd, 2019, 03:17 AM
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Re: [Pod 1] UNIT NAME (Ob Nixilis, Demon of Spite) - Design

[QUOTE=All Your Pie;2292581]While I don’t mind reusing powers and concepts, I feel like reusing a version of Gothlok’s aura would cheapen both designs. This unit would certainly be different enough from Gothlok, but that aura is still the centerpiece of his design and it would feel a little odd to me to repeat it elsewhere. Plus, keeping the total number of stat lowering auras in the game to a minimum is probably a good idea simply to avoid unpleasant interactions with stacking them as much as possible.

I still prefer this guy’s aura to be anti-defensive in some way for largely the reasons Scytale mentioned—whenever possible I prefer to design units that encourage fast offensive games, not slow defensive ones. If we don’t want to do the defensive re-roll (although I don’t personally feel it would slow down the game all that much) we could consider other options. Here’s an idea that popped into my head:

Aura of Frailty
Whenever an opponent’s figure within 4 clear sigh spaces of (figure name) rolls defense dice, if they roll exactly the same amount of shields as the attacker rolled skulls, the defending figure receives a wound.

Range 5? for aura?
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  #35  
Old July 2nd, 2019, 03:26 AM
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Re: [Pod 1] UNIT NAME (Ob Nixilis, Demon of Spite) - Design

Small details like aura range can be tweaked as necessary as we move forward depending on what testing tells us. You may be right in that it's always going to be harder to keep enemy units in an aura than it is to keep your own in one, so a range expansion could compensate. The power as written is very strong though, and expanding the range would only make it stronger.

More than details like that, and this is true for every design in this pod, I'm interested in the directions people would like for these units based on the listed options. I think we've suggested plenty of ideas at this point, we just need to choose the best ones to move forward with. So far the aura/spirit combination seems pretty well supported here, so it's a matter of picking which version of those powers we want. The kyrie/demon distinction is a little less clearly defined, and I think we should decide on that as well since it could have synergy implications--I don't think we want to design a Kyrie Darklord for instance, as Darklord just isn't a class Kyrie have. I'm pretty much ambivalent on that part of the design--Demon is obvious and doesn't require leaps, but the figure also looks very Kyrie and the tail can be explained away as some sort of curse or affliction. Not that he's a good example, but it would be less of a leap than Marcu being a vampire.
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  #36  
Old July 2nd, 2019, 12:28 PM
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Re: [Pod 1] UNIT NAME (Ob Nixilis, Demon of Spite) - Design

I personally like the idea of him being a hybrid: half Demon half Kyrie. A negative spirit for defense is better if the aura is also defense based. I still prefer the defense re-roll aura because it adds something new and exciting to heroscape. I like the fact the power could work for or against you which adds to the hybrid theme. Also making him a darklord opens up some interesting synergy with the wolves with there pounce ability.
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