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  #337  
Old May 11th, 2022, 09:10 AM
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Re: Rules Team HQ - Open for Business

If it never came up in the tests, then it wasn't tested so he wasn't costed as though he could do it. I've never played Captain Cold as being able to save his own Order Markers as that is not how the power is worded.
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  #338  
Old May 11th, 2022, 12:45 PM
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Re: Rules Team HQ - Open for Business

Quote:
Originally Posted by tcglkn View Post
If it never came up in the tests, then it wasn't tested so he wasn't costed as though he could do it.
Things not coming up in tests can mean a variety of things. If its a luck based power, then the luck/odds weren't in that card's favor. If its a power with options, and an option wasn't chosen, its because the choice wasn't available or right for the situation. And sometimes triggers are just not triggered.

Just because Contingency can happen when a figure like Captain Cold dies doesn't mean I'm going to play a game running him out there trying to get him killed. What would I learn from that? That he's worth more to me alive than dead? I already knew that!

-
Interesting thing about the wording is that both Captain Cold and Big Man originally had the "in play" part, and tickle and archie both suggested removing that part in each other's threads, seemingly due to the Lex thread. So there was agreement on the wording, but not what that wording actually allowed.

Might be best to stick with Oracle wording for figures that don't want the power to activate on its own destruction, and Batman (JL) wording for cards that do want that option.
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  #339  
Old May 11th, 2022, 12:47 PM
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Re: Rules Team HQ - Open for Business

The Big Man/Lex wording is exactly the same as Oracle since "While this figure is in play" is just redundant.
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  #340  
Old May 11th, 2022, 01:18 PM
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Re: Rules Team HQ - Open for Business

Strictly speaking, they're not exactly the same as Oracle. And the words were omitted to create the opposite effect of your understanding. So in order to best eliminate uncertainty, maybe "in play" should never have left the wording of cards like Big Man to begin with.

It's the last sentence of the definition of "in play," that confirms for me that Oracle's power does not work when she's destroyed and before being removed from the battlefield.

"In play" having a definition that is different from "you control" tells me that it's not really a redundant phrase.


I know I've brought this example up a bunch, but the Canary Cry has some weird logic, so can we confirm if I'm correct? When Black Canary is destroyed, but before she's removed from the battlefield, she's under your control, but not "in play"?

CANARY CRY FOR JUSTICE
If Black Canary or a friendly Unique Hero within clear sight of Black Canary receives at least 2 wounds or is destroyed, roll the 20-sided die. If you roll 14 or higher, choose 4 spaces in a straight line from Black Canary. All enemy figures on or within 1 space of the chosen spaces receive 1 wound, and you may remove 1 unrevealed Order Marker at random from each of their Army Cards.
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  #341  
Old May 11th, 2022, 02:16 PM
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Re: Rules Team HQ - Open for Business

Hmm, so you're suggesting that when you're destroyed you're immediately no longer under a player's control, but you're still in play until you're subsequently removed from the battlefield?

So: Control (in your army, on the battlefield, not destroyed)
In play (in your army, on the battlefield)
In your army (in your army)

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  #342  
Old May 11th, 2022, 04:05 PM
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Re: Rules Team HQ - Open for Business

Quote:
Originally Posted by IAmBatman View Post
Hmm, so you're suggesting that when you're destroyed you're immediately no longer under a player's control, but you're still in play until you're subsequently removed from the battlefield?
No, the opposite. When Black Canary is destroyed, but before she's removed from the battlefield, she's under your control, but not "in play."

In play (on the battlefield, not destroyed, not necessarily part of an army)
You control (in your army, on the battlefield)
In your army (in your army)

Its kind of confusing, because destroyed seems to be a two-step process. The state of being destroyed occurring when the number of wounds equals or exceeds the life number on the card. Then the figure is placed on its card.
Kind of weird that Destroyed is not defined in the glossary, so the closest you can find is under Life.



Example of another "is destroyed... before removing power":
BLOOD CURSE
Anytime a Blood Demon is destroyed by a normal attack from an opponent’s figure that is not a Demon, before removing that Blood Demon from the battlefield, roll one unblockable attack die against the attacking figure.
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  #343  
Old May 11th, 2022, 06:46 PM
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Re: Rules Team HQ - Open for Business

Its also possible I'm reaching incorrect conclusions using twisty logic that stems from C3G's use of this state of being destroyed, and still on the battlefield. I don't know if Classic used that wording, but the closest I know of is:

Dying Swipe
If this Frost Giant of Morh is attacked with a normal attack by an opponent's figure and receives enough wounds to be destroyed, roll 3 attack dice. One at a time for each skull rolled, you may inflict 1 wound on any figure that is adjacent to this Frost Giant of Morh. Figures affected by Dying Swipe cannot roll any defense dice and can receive more than 1 wound each. After using Dying Swipe, remove this Frost Giant of Morh from the battlefield.
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  #344  
Old May 11th, 2022, 10:19 PM
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Re: Rules Team HQ - Open for Business

Not going to comment on the Contingency Plan stuff since I haven't been following it. But, why are we assuming Black Canary is under your control when you roll for her 'death cry'? She doesn't need to be. Power says it works when she's dead, it works when she's dead. The 'you' is whoever's army she's in. Not like Thanos or Grundy or whatever are under your control all the time just cause they have powers that work when they're dead.

Like the definition of control straight up says destroyed stuff doesn't count. Trying to have you control and in play be different things (instead of you control just being a subset of things in play) for a microscopic window is just silly.


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  #345  
Old May 17th, 2022, 10:56 AM
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Re: Rules Team HQ - Open for Business

I'm just trying to figure out the state of a figure when its been destroyed, but before being removed from the battlefield. I had asked about BC previously, and was told that she was still under your control during her death cry.

If she's not under your control, is she just, "a figure on the battlefield," with no controller? Any wounds her death cry inflicts on your opponent, would those be "from an opponent's figure," or no?

--

The Contingency debate comes down to:

A) The "in play" requirement is superfluous, because powers already only work when a figure is "in play," so OMs on its card cannot be reorganized when it is destroyed.

B) The "in play" requirement is superfluous, and the power is already worded such that order markers are preserved upon its own destruction. Not being able to do so would require wording such as, "When another Army Card you control has all its figures destroyed."
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  #346  
Old May 17th, 2022, 06:17 PM
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Re: Rules Team HQ - Open for Business

It seems like we may have unearthed a larger issue that may need sorting in conjunction to Contingency Plans. C3G Rules Team is consistently like if the Scooby Gang set out to uncover who was haunting the local amusement park but wound up uncovering lizard people within the US government.

Anyways, I think we have 2 paths forward with the Contingency Plan issue. The "in play" issue may need to be solved, but I'd personally think it wise to solve the Contingency issue first. I'll include "in play" thoughts in a spoiler below.

2 Paths Forward:
1) We retroactively make all Contingency Plans work the same, no matter how their designers/testers intended. This loses some designer intent (natch) and also possibly some theme, but there's also a slickness in having them all operate identically.
2) We allow different Contingency powers to function like they were tested. At this point I might prefer giving them different names (Contingency Plan vs. Contingency Plot or whatever)

"In Play" thoughts:
Spoiler Alert!


Thanks for taking the reigns here Toy, it's appreciated.
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  #347  
Old May 21st, 2022, 02:42 PM
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Re: Rules Team HQ - Open for Business

For sure, thank you!
SW is correct, in that "You control" is a subset of "In play", as they are the same, except that "in play" also covers figures not part of an army.

I'd go for your path #2, renaming is a good fix.
If we are re-naming, maybe something a little more different than Plan vs Plot?
Backup Planner vs Contingency Plan?

If two cards have the same power, shouldn't the wording be identical? I would think that Oracle would already need an update to match Big Man.
I'd be most in favor of having Oracle and Big Man adopt SW's suggestion from the Lex thread, the "'When another Army Card you control has all its figures destroyed..."

And maybe Captain Cold and Lex could be worded more similarly to Batman's so there is no ambiguity?
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