Heroscapers
Go Back   Heroscapers > Official Classic HeroScape > Competitive Armies Discussion
Competitive Armies Discussion Discuss, critique, and build ideas for tournament-caliber armies.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #13  
Old February 20th, 2008, 11:31 AM
Matthias Maccabeus's Avatar
Matthias Maccabeus Matthias Maccabeus is offline
Don't Need Range in the Knight-time
 
Join Date: April 10, 2007
Location: IA - Councilbama
Posts: 3,899
Matthias Maccabeus is hot lava death! Matthias Maccabeus is hot lava death! Matthias Maccabeus is hot lava death! Matthias Maccabeus is hot lava death! Matthias Maccabeus is hot lava death! Matthias Maccabeus is hot lava death! Matthias Maccabeus is hot lava death! Matthias Maccabeus is hot lava death! Matthias Maccabeus is hot lava death! Matthias Maccabeus is hot lava death! Matthias Maccabeus is hot lava death! Matthias Maccabeus is hot lava death! Matthias Maccabeus is hot lava death!
Nice speculations.

No wonder I can't win a tournament, I don't play range, reavers, or Raelin, well I do use Raelin from time to time.
Oh, well I still probably won't play range until they come out with knights with guns.

Dragon Dice - (the 2nd best game there is) Learn to Play!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1h3q6...wujcr8vVf8e21G
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old February 20th, 2008, 01:09 PM
R˙chean's Avatar
R˙chean R˙chean is offline
GenCon 2014 Main Event Champ / Obsessive-Compulsive HS Storage Organizer
 
Join Date: May 9, 2006
Location: TX - Dallas
Posts: 7,318
Images: 90
Blog Entries: 10
R˙chean is a man of the cloth R˙chean is a man of the cloth R˙chean is a man of the cloth R˙chean is a man of the cloth R˙chean is a man of the cloth R˙chean is a man of the cloth R˙chean is a man of the cloth R˙chean is a man of the cloth R˙chean is a man of the cloth R˙chean is a man of the cloth R˙chean is a man of the cloth R˙chean is a man of the cloth R˙chean is a man of the cloth R˙chean is a man of the cloth R˙chean is a man of the cloth
Great job, Jexik.

I agree there was a change in the tourney scene with the flagbearer's release. Laglor ultimately increased the power and prominence of Q9. I played in a tournament in Dec 06 right after their release. It was the first exposure to this dreaded combo: Krav, Raelin, Laglor, Q9. That army is probably still the most feared.

HodgePodge? This has been my style I guess; I tend to do better when I play hodge podge. My success with 4th mass has been suspect at best. Reavers sort of became my babies. When the entire scatter from your own rat attacks fiasco went down, many prominent players and posters felt that the Reavers were in affect "nerfed" by the errata and because I was the one that prompted the errata, many felt I nerfed the rats. I felt obligated to prove their worth after the errata. Thankfully wisinger took care of that for me on NHSD 2006, winning the Dallas tourney with a "hodge podge" and rats.

The only other complaint I have is that your article mentions me too much!!!

A must read for all 'Scapers!
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old February 20th, 2008, 04:04 PM
Revdyer's Avatar
Revdyer Revdyer is offline
Our Invaluable & Highly Esteemed Resident Chaplain
 
Join Date: May 9, 2006
Location: AR - Little Rock
Posts: 13,323
Images: 11
Blog Entries: 18
Revdyer is a man of the cloth Revdyer is a man of the cloth Revdyer is a man of the cloth Revdyer is a man of the cloth Revdyer is a man of the cloth Revdyer is a man of the cloth Revdyer is a man of the cloth Revdyer is a man of the cloth Revdyer is a man of the cloth Revdyer is a man of the cloth Revdyer is a man of the cloth Revdyer is a man of the cloth Revdyer is a man of the cloth Revdyer is a man of the cloth Revdyer is a man of the cloth
Quote:
Originally Posted by R˙chean
Great job, Jexik.

My success with 4th mass has been suspect at best. Reavers sort of became my babies.

The only other complaint I have is that your article mentions me too much!!!
Hey! I wanted some compliments on how to work the 4th Mass. <grin>

(Note: "suspect at best" means "sucks.")
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old February 20th, 2008, 04:24 PM
Shades fan's Avatar
Shades fan Shades fan is offline
Wears Shades at Night
 
Join Date: August 19, 2007
Location: Upstate N.Y.
Posts: 3,269
Shades fan wears ripped pants of awesomeness Shades fan wears ripped pants of awesomeness Shades fan wears ripped pants of awesomeness Shades fan wears ripped pants of awesomeness Shades fan wears ripped pants of awesomeness Shades fan wears ripped pants of awesomeness
This is intresting as all of your articles are. This makes me think how when wave 3 was released how the Marrden hounds would Dominate the game because their wasn't a lot of Soulborgs but eventually they were put in their place.

Spread Positivity and the joys of gaming.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old February 20th, 2008, 04:28 PM
arp12's Avatar
arp12 arp12 is offline
Silly Kid
 
Join Date: September 30, 2007
Location: USA - MA
Posts: 2,104
Images: 43
Blog Entries: 4
arp12 wears ripped pants of awesomeness arp12 wears ripped pants of awesomeness arp12 wears ripped pants of awesomeness arp12 wears ripped pants of awesomeness arp12 wears ripped pants of awesomeness arp12 wears ripped pants of awesomeness
Great interesting article!
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old February 20th, 2008, 05:41 PM
Clarissimus's Avatar
Clarissimus Clarissimus is offline
 
Join Date: January 6, 2007
Location: IN - Fort Wayne
Posts: 1,014
Images: 6
Clarissimus wears ripped pants of awesomeness Clarissimus wears ripped pants of awesomeness Clarissimus wears ripped pants of awesomeness Clarissimus wears ripped pants of awesomeness Clarissimus wears ripped pants of awesomeness Clarissimus wears ripped pants of awesomeness
Well written, and a pleasure to read. I have one minor quibble . . . is Cyprien really a modern force to be reckoned with? Maybe it's just me, but he seems fairly easy to take down. I'd say he's worth his 150 points, but no more.

I never lay awake at night wondering how to design an army that will help me win 40% of my games. -- Jexik

Do NOT click this link.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old February 20th, 2008, 06:36 PM
Jexik's Avatar
Jexik Jexik is offline
Et tu, Jaxet?
 
Join Date: July 4, 2007
Location: IL - Elgin
Posts: 6,986
Images: 3
Blog Entries: 30
Jexik is hot lava death! Jexik is hot lava death! Jexik is hot lava death! Jexik is hot lava death! Jexik is hot lava death! Jexik is hot lava death! Jexik is hot lava death! Jexik is hot lava death! Jexik is hot lava death! Jexik is hot lava death! Jexik is hot lava death! Jexik is hot lava death! Jexik is hot lava death! Jexik is hot lava death!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarissimus
I have one minor quibble . . . is Cyprien really a modern force to be reckoned with? Maybe it's just me, but he seems fairly easy to take down. I'd say he's worth his 150 points, but no more.
I think people are quickly figuring out ways to handle him, but from my own experience using him in a tournament, he can be exceedingly difficult to handle if your opponent's army isn't ready. I list him as a metagame changer, simply because he's a new unit that I consider whenever I make an army. I'm reluctant to make an army of all non-soulborg unique squads now, largely because Cyprien rips the Krav and Nakitas apart. I used Sonya too. She increases his average chilling touch damage from .95 wounds per attempt, to 1.55, and increases his chances of killing a squad figure from 40% to 50%. Considering that his likelihood of killing units is directly related to how many lives he has, I think his ball and chain is worth it.

In some of my test games for the tournament, he also did quite well against spread out 4th Mass. Like many units, he really shines with Deathreaver support. I think of him like Syvarris with self healing and extra defense and life. If you can make sure your opponent can only get 1-2 weak attacks in on him per turn, he's nigh unkillable. Stingers can hurt him pretty badly though.

The other interesting thing about Cyprien is that he's terrible against melee bonded squads. If he becomes really popular, that alone might help the viability of melee-heavy armies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Junge Roman
Yeah, the road and castle sets changed map making dramatically, and thus changed the "metagame."

The flagbearers were also a big phenomenon.
RttFF came out during the Year of Squadscape, and may have helped contribute to the viability of Roman Legionnaires, and maybe even squads like Tagawa Samurai which I don't even remember exist half the time.

When exactly did the Flagbearers hit the shelves? Was it just after GenCon 2006? I think that you and the others are right in that Laglor and Sir Gilbert helped shake things up. I'll probably make a mention of it. My statement that the Dark Ages were a time of little change is sort of a joke. I mean, the Roman Empire was totally shattered, and rats and evil robots infested the streets. And then the rich can purchase these powerful fancy standard bearers?!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kahrma
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jexik
6. Increasing the number of starting hexes increases the strength of squads, and lengthens the amount of time required to complete a game.

I'd also speculate that increasing starting zone size benefits melee units. Melee troops tend to be less expensive (per figure) than Ranged units, stat for stat. Outnumbering your opponent is one way to make sure your melee troops actually survive to engage with enemy range. Larger starting zones give you this flexibility - smaller starting zones restrict it.

Tournament point totals have risen from the original "standard" of 400, reaching close to 600 in the past year. Starting zone size, however, has remained at 24. I think this is one more reason ranged troops are so dominant.
I agree to some extent. I definitely think that the rising point totals in the face of constant starting zones have definitely hurt the cheaper melee squads like Blade Gruts and Roman Legionnaires, while Knights of Weston still seem to be doing quite well with the help of their slightly higher cost and Gilbert and Alastair. I think Heavy Gruts would experience similar success if they had a slightly more durable Champion to go with them. Tornak and Grimnak often seem to die a little sooner than I expect, and the same goes for Nerak and Ornak. If we made the leap to 600 or 700 points, Knights of Weston would become tougher to field, but so would 'trons and maybe even 4th Mass.

Minions keep popping up here and there, and I would guess that it's because they're expensive. Until we play over 900 points, we won't run into a "not enough room for my Minions" scenario. 500 points also seems to be a good spot for using Sentinels in a supplementary role that we hadn't seen much when they first came out- the re-release of Wave 3 and Master Woo might also have helped contribute to this surge. In a higher point game in the right army, maybe even the Einar Imperium will be good some day.

Edit: Kahrma, I just read your post again, and I noticed the 'stat for stat' part. You're right about that I suppose, as a quick look at Minions of Utgar and Omnicron Snipers will show you. It might be interesting for someone to run a regression analysis relating points to the stats, including range, attack, defense, and movement (and then perhaps uses Elstree's other observations about special power strength to help sort that out.) I'd do it myself... if someone were to pay me. What makes matters worse for me is that I suspect that most of these relationships are not linear. Yuck.

Anyway, I find that the current point total (about 500) tends to lend itself towards squads that are in the 60-80 point range, or about 15-20 per hex, regardless of whether they're ranged or not. If your tournament is lower or higher than this total, plan accordingly, or adjust the number of heroes. This isn't that surprising since 500 points/24 hexes is 25, which essentially means you stick in one hero and then your desired squads.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fomox View Post
(I've also played many matches with great, fun people who were using Q9. So using Q9 doesn't make you a tool. But being a tool sure seems to make you use Q9.)
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old February 21st, 2008, 12:42 AM
Chimpy's Avatar
Chimpy Chimpy is offline
 
Join Date: August 21, 2006
Location: Rochester, MN
Posts: 2,962
Chimpy knows what's in an order marker Chimpy knows what's in an order marker
A couple of points:

-Great article idea. The recent resurgence of necromanced threads has gotten me thinking quite a bit about this topic, but I never would have thought to make a thread about it!

-I also second the idea to cut your "Dark Ages'" in half. The Flag Bearers seem like a good dividing point, with wave Six and the flag bearers going on one half, and wave 5 and the Q9 going on the other. With the discussion of the first half, I would probably highlight this as the fall of Sgt. Drake's control of the commanding heights; there were just too many units with special attacks to make him worth is points. (The move to 500 point armies happened as a result of the flag bearers, right?)

-It would be nice if you could flesh out the recent history a bit- as one who has not been to the site for a couple months, I would enjoy a bit longer piece on the affects of SOTM
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old February 21st, 2008, 09:57 PM
Messenger's Avatar
Messenger Messenger is offline
 
Join Date: May 12, 2006
Location: IN - Fort Wayne
Posts: 673
Messenger has disabled reputation
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chimpy
The move to 500 point armies happened as a result of the flag bearers, right?
The Flagbearers, and the likes of Nilfheim, Braxas, and even Jotun. With figures like these eating up nearly, or more than, half your points, there was just no way they would ever show up in 400 point tournaments.

There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

Romans 3:22-24
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old February 22nd, 2008, 02:32 PM
Darkomen57 Darkomen57 is offline
 
Join Date: January 27, 2008
Location: PA - Pittsburgh
Posts: 302
Darkomen57 has disabled reputation
Nice! Was interesting to read.

Bitefight!
Quote:
Originally Posted by guido
...good grammar will get you far on this site. (at least a lot farther than the reverse).
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old February 22nd, 2008, 02:44 PM
Supergeek's Avatar
Supergeek Supergeek is offline
 
Join Date: May 9, 2006
Location: IA - Ames
Posts: 1,244
Images: 34
Blog Entries: 1
Supergeek knows what's in an order marker Supergeek knows what's in an order marker
Re: Metagame Evolution

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jexik
3. I suck at Heroscape.
I'm calling B.S. on this one.
Other than that, great article.

I <3 HeroScape tournaments!
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old February 22nd, 2008, 03:11 PM
DarkBladeCB's Avatar
DarkBladeCB DarkBladeCB is offline
 
Join Date: February 11, 2008
Location: NC - WFU/Raleigh
Posts: 616
DarkBladeCB is surprisingly tart
As a person still trying to acquire good figures to be actually able to play competitively (and who hasn't really made it out of the circle of friends to play), this article is really fascinating. I'd picked up on a lot of this information just through osmosis by lurking over the forums the last few weeks, but having it all spelled out was really fascinating.

I think I learned a lot. And what to try and buy.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   Heroscapers > Official Classic HeroScape > Competitive Armies Discussion
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:57 AM.

Heroscape background footer

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.